Making the Leap from IRC to RL
Speaker: ^sparrow
September, 1997


The Importance of a Safety Net

TheKttN: Hi everyone:) For those of you who don't know ^sparrow, she does the website subNATION and her topic tonight is "Making the Leap from IRC to RL" so whenever sparrow is ready we can begin.

^sparrow: to make things easier, i have it already written out and will just be cutting and pasting

^sparrow: i will also put a copy of it on subNATION and anywhere else that wants it

^sparrow: i am told that there will be a question and answer period afterwords

^sparrow: Hello. My name is amy. I am a real life submissive as well as the author, administrator, creator and chief cook and bottle-washer of the web site subNATION. I am 47, married to a vanilla husband and I only discovered this submissive side of myself in the spring of 1996. Until then, it was something buried deep inside of me...a faint itch that would occasionally want to be scratched.

^sparrow: Like so many of you, I first became aware of the scene online. A friend from a vanilla channel convinced me to go to a D/s channel with him. Frankly, I was a bit curious, but nothing more. However, once there, I began to ask some questions and I found that something inside of me awoke. It felt right. Even more strange was that I seemed to fall into the submissive role naturally. The strange part was that I am, in many respects, a forceful, pushy, aggressive, opinionated, too often smart-assed kind of person. I am also intelligent, educated (the two are too often mutually exclusive) with an appreciation for many different kinds or art, music, literature, etc. In other words, I am a person who is quite capable of making decisions and managing their own life.

^sparrow: Back to the topic at hand. The friend who first brought me to the channel, whom I will call SL, became my guide, my teacher, my mentor, my Dom and later, my Master. Though he is no longer my Master, he is still my guide, mentor, teacher and most of all, friend. This is an important point because the one you do submit to should always be a friend first, everything else comes later. A friend is someone you can talk to without fear of reprisal.

^sparrow: For the record, SL is ShadowLrd, <nodding to him>

^sparrow: A friend listens and hears. A friend knows there are times to talk, times to listen and times to just be there, to hold and comfort when no words are necessary. Most imortantly, a friend tells you the truth, not what they think you want to hear and a friend expects the same from you.

^sparrow: If it seems that I am harping on this subject, well....i am and I always will. Most of you would not go off to bed with some guy you met in a bar a few hours ago, but all too many are willing to put their very lives in the hands of someone whose face they have never seen. If you think that everyone in the scene is honest and can be trusted, think again. Ask some people on Undernet about the female slave cin that so many Masters wanted and who turned out to be the man james. Ask the woman in Florida who is still confined to a wheelchair from the beating she got a couple of years ago from her "Master" she'd met online. Ask the young mother in South Carolina who went to a "Training Dom" in California without telling anyone where she was, who was then forced to become the plaything of this "Dom" and his wife while her frantic husband searched for her. If you think that being a submissive means you do not have to think for yourself, then you need a babysitter or parent, not a Master or Mistress.

^sparrow: Ok, after all that you still are going ahead and meeting your Master/Mistress. Now what?

^sparrow: First off....there is NO PLAY at the initial meeting. It is in a public place, in the open somewhere. You will have arranged for at least two safe calls and let the Dominant know this. You will know beforehand where the meeting is to take place, including address and phone numbers. Your safe call will also have this information as well as numbers to call if something goes wrong, such as relative, police, etc. If your plans change, notify your safe call immediately. You will also have the name, address and phone number, verified if possible, of the Master/Mistress you are going to meet. If they refuse you this information on the grounds of conficentiality, just are supposed to trust them with your life, but they will not trust you with a phone number? Uh uh..nope. Same goes for any of the other safety precautions. Any Dominant who says that such precautions are unnecessary is a dangerous person and to be avoided at all costs.

^sparrow: The initial meeting went well and you have decided on a second one. Now, for the first time, there may be play involved. Of course, you have both talked openly and honestly for a long time and are well aware of each others needs and desires and limits by now...right? You are looking forward to this after months of cyber. You meet, maybe in a hotel or motel, you have another safecall or two arranged and there you are. The door opens, you walk in and drop to your knees just like you always did online. Whoa! Carpet burns! And these darn hotel rooms are so small that there is hardly room for you to bend down and when you do, you hear your knees crack and that touch of artritis flares up. As you remove your clothing, doing the sensual dance that was so easy online, you feel a bit clumsy when you keep running into the bed. To make matters worse, the zipper on your skirt gets stuck.

^sparrow: Finally, you are naked and kneeling and the Dominant lovingly ties you up, just like you did online. Except that your shoulders didn't burn online and you didn't keep falling on your face when your ankles were tied to your thighs. You didn't get rope burns on your arms and legs and the knots always opened easily. Your knees didn't scream in agony after an hour either. Then...uh oh...Master shows you the vibrator he has been using in your pussy and you see blood. Damn, your period is early! The butt plugs that felt so wonderful online make you want to run to the bathroom. And the spanking over his knee hurts! It really hurts! How are you going to drive home if you can't even sit down? Oh no! The batteries in the vibrator are running down!

^sparrow: This brief interlude has been brought to you by reality. Do these things happen? You betcha!

^sparrow: The point here is that, no matter how wonderful it was online, it never quite works out that way in real life. Of course, just by the fact that it is real life, it is often much better, but there are no guarantees and you can't just type your way into a perfect encounter. Be realistic and be prepared.

^sparrow: Your first consideration should be your own safety. This means not only safecalls, but safe words and safe practices. There are two forms of safewords...the word that you use when everything must stop as you can take no more and the words red, yellow and green, which control the rate of play. Green means you can continue. Yellow means slow down, you are nearing your limit. Red means stop immediately and back down. There are differing ideas about the use of safe words. Some say that to use them means you are not giving your submission totally. Some say that they are useless when the sub has reached "subspace".

^sparrow: There are no absolutes here, but a little common sense goes a very long way.

^sparrow: Any Dominant who says that they control the relationship totally is kidding themselves. Submission is give and can be taken away. That is the choice of the submissive. It is ALWAYS the choice of the submissive. However, a submissive can..and does choose to submit themselves completely. This means that the Dominant is responsible for the well-being, safety, the life of the submissive. This is an awesome responsibility and not one to be taken lightly. To do so, the Dominant must know the submissive as intimately as they know themselves...even more so. This cannot be done in a week online. It cannot be done online at all. It takes time. Any true Dominant will admit that. And until that time, the Dominant depends on the submissive to make their thoughts, feelings, mental state and limits known. Safewords are the most obvious and easiest...and safest ways of doing this.

^sparrow: I want to share with you an experience that I had which shows that even safewords are not infallible and the importance of the Dominants understanding and knowledge of the submissive. During a recent session with SL, I was bent over a bed being whipped with a wooden rod. It was extremely painful, moreso than I had experienced before. I was in tears and a voice inside of my head was screaming "stop", but I bit my lip and kept silent. To use a safeword at that time would have felt like I was giving up, limiting my submission. I could not use it, yet all I wanted was for the pain to go away. At this point, SL stopped. You see, after more than a year and a half, he knew me well enough to know when to stop. This is the kind of knowledge and understanding that only time, honesty and true affection can breed. I don't want to think about what might have happened had he not stopped.

^sparrow: Another point too often overlooked concerns toys. Again, there are different opinions here, but mine is this. The submissive buys and keeps the toys, especially anything that is inserted into his/her body. In these days of Aids and other STDs, not to do so is like playing Russian roulette. Anything that is to be inserted into your body should NEVER be inserted into anyone elses whenever possible. Ok, there is one, make that But you get my meaning, I think. And ALWAYS clean and disinfect everything when finished.

^sparrow: Well, now that I have bored you all to tears or sent you off to the web or your email, I will close here by saying...begging..all of you to please use your heads and the brains you were born with. A little common sense goes an awfully long way online and in real life. You can be your own worst enemy and your own best friend. And remember, no matter who or what you are, you are not defined by your possessions or who owns you. You are defined by the kind of individual person you are. The only person you really NEED, is yourself.

^sparrow: The End

cyberfish smiles at sparrow....very well said, thank you :)

SirSirpen smiles at sparrow

SirSirpen: lovely talk

Hawkwood: Bravo.

sasha_: oh sparrow

^sparrow: you can all wake up now....<g>

honebabe: thank you ^sparrow

ProvokeMe: thank you sparrow : )

sasha_: that was wonderful

DCs^kitN applaudes sparrow

ShadowLrd: Good girl, ^sparrow

lushus{H} applauds! wonderfully done!

fireNdark: :) sparrow

ShadowLrd: Excellent

^sparrow is blushing for real now!

`sassysub: definately

sasha_: awwwwwwww

sasha_: I think you made so amny good points

TheKttN: excellent:)

TheKttN: we are ready for questions and fireNdark will be doing the QEUEU, just type ? or !

sasha_: that should all be heeded

anglfire thought it was wonderful

fireNdark: GA sasha

sasha_: sparrow what would you say to the submissive that says i have no one to safe call

sasha_: how can she use online or other means to set up a safety net

^sparrow: in fact, there are such groups online

^sparrow: there is a group called safety net and it's linked on subNATION

^sparrow: in addition, i am working with WiserDom, Mike, to get the word out about another group called SafeNet

^sparrow: These groups were specifically set up to be the safe call for those who have no one else if anyone here does need a safe call

^sparrow: go to the channel #wiserdom on dalnet and ask for Mike or WiserDom

^sparrow: he can direct you until we get more information up on the web

fireNdark: GA Hawkwood

Hawkwood: A practical matter... Meeting publically the first time does tend to inhibit conversation about BDSM...

Hawkwood: How exactly do you reconcile the need for privacy with the need to be public?

^sparrow: well...frankly there is so much to talk about that you do not have to always talk about bdsm

^sparrow: in fact, most of the time you have spoken about that ad nauseum aleady online

Hawkwood: True, but you need to explore each other's needs and taboos, and this is hard to do in public.

^sparrow: sure you can think of other things besides that..

ShadowLrd: If I may, ^sparrow

fireNdark: GA sasha

^sparrow: please, Sir

sasha_: well i was going to say that i think first meetings should perhaps be less intense

ShadowLrd: The ... public meeting is not so much to explore limits as to get over the physical shock of what the other REALLY looks like.

sasha_: not focus on BDSM

Hawkwood: LOL

^sparrow: exactly

sasha_: but more on whether you can be friends

ShadowLrd: Exactly, sasha_

sasha_: can you laugh together

sasha_: speak to each other

sasha_: do they move you in that special way

`sassysub: can you pig out in front of each other :)

Hawkwood: ROFL

ShadowLrd nods

cyberfish: LOL

ShadowLrd: Is there the ... right chemistry

^sparrow: lol!

^sparrow: exactly

sasha_: yes that to sassy

sasha_: does he pick his nose ect

lushus{H}: *chuckles*

sasha_: lol

`sassysub: lol

Arturo-: cept sasha never pigs out

Arturo-: she eats like a bird

Hawkwood: <--- pigs out, especially at breakfast. :)

Arturo-: but we can bird out together

ShadowLrd: The point is, the first meeting should NOT be about BDSM

ShadowLrd: But about ... friendship

^sparrow: a bird eats 10 times it's weight a day

lushus{H}: farting comes to my mind

lushus{H}: lmao

sasha_: love your seed Master what can i say

sasha_: opps

^sparrow: lol!!!

hummybird: sparrow i don't eat 10 times my weight! ;)

Arturo-: oops

ProvokeMe: I was gonna say that lushus.... but deferred...

fireNdark was waiting for sassy to mention that

Arturo-: im so glad you do my angel

ProvokeMe: LOL

`sassysub: :Þ fNd

Arturo-: smiles

^sparrow: lol!

fireNdark: GA TheKttn

sasha_: okie another question what can you do before you meet to make expectations realistic

sasha_: opps

sasha_: sorry

TheKttN: on a more serious side i have seen this happen way too much. how do you re ccommend ppl cope after meeting, especially if it is a long distance relationship. so many split after they meet.

TheKttN: not because they don't love, it is just too painful to be apart

DCs^kitN: KttN, i'd love to comment on that

^sparrow nods

Arturo- smiles at TheKttn.. hello sweet thing

TheKttN: hello Arturo Sir:)

^sparrow: please do kitn

TheKttN: please kitN:) it is a painful thing i see all the time

DCs^kitN: i've been very lucky in many ways

honebabe: I would like to have the answer...

DCs^kitN: i've known myMaster - DomCat for over a year, been collared for ten months now and we have only met r/l once so far and we're still going strong as ever

DCs^kitN: how do we do it?

DCs^kitN: first off, we became friends first

SirSirpen: you both told the truth and we honest, kitN or were honest

DCs^kitN: we can and do talk about our work, hobbies and lives

DCs^kitN: we founded our relationship on what any relationship should be founded one

DCs^kitN grins and yes

honebabe: ok....

DCs^kitN: we were painfullyu honest with each other from the start

ProvokeMe knows no other way to be

DCs^kitN: if he told me one more time, but i'm 50 some odd years old i was gonna scream

DCs^kitN: and his friendship and trust in me, gave me the ability to be so honest with myself like i never have been before

honebabe: I would like to thank you for taking this time to talk to us about these things.... I found it quite useful... thank you very much...

DCs^kitN: how do we cope with being l/d

DCs^kitN: it's tough, but we talk and write each other alot

DCs^kitN: nothing replaces real time together

^sparrow: you know...the LDR is unique to the online world

DCs^kitN: but maybe it's because i know how happy i make him and how happy he makes me, i wouldn't trade this relationship for anything

DCs^kitN: and i've babbled enough

fireNdark: GA sasha (expectations) ?

cyberfish: thank you all :)

ArturoAFK: its possible sasha is afk

TheKttN: LDR is very unique to here and ppl make it work which is more amazing.

ArturoAFK: for a moment

fireNdark: :)

^sparrow: may i make a comment yoo>

^sparrow: too?

^sparrow: i think that....all too often....people mistake lust for love

^sparrow: it is very easy to get....swept away online

DCs^kitN grins, and if anyone wonders if Cat and i make LDR work, just hang out with us on undernet a lil

^sparrow: and when you have only a weekend together you tend to want to cram as much into it as possible

^sparrow: but i think that it is important to understand the situation and to be realistic about it

^sparrow: i think that if both partners do this openly and honestly, it makes the pain of separation bearable

DCs^kitN: good point sparrow

^sparrow: you may notice that the one aspect that is important in every situation is open and honest communication

ShadowLrd: One quick point.

DCs^kitN: that was something DomCat and i talked about extensively before me met, knowing that we had limited time and other r/l events to attend to our weekend together. so we knew to know 'kill'ourselves.

ShadowLrd: As much as we should not wish it to happen, relationships do end

anglfire nods

ShadowLrd: It is important for both parties that they end on an up note

ShadowLrd: Which is why I say, "Friends first. Playmates perhaps. Friends last."

Hawkwood: :)

^sparrow smiles

sasha_ smmiles at ShadowLord well said and so true

fireNdark: lovely ShadowLrd

sasha_: if someone was worth loving

sasha_: are they not valuable enough to keep as a friend

DCs^kitN smiles at ShadowLrd....hmmmmm considered bein g cloned?

ShadowLrd: <---Neanderthal and DAMNED proud

^sparrow: lol!

fireNdark: LOL

^sparrow: oh god...2 ShadowLrds?

untamable: hello

sasha_: mm sparrow you can be spanhed in tandum

sasha_: oh and so many things

^sparrow: lol!!!

fireNdark: LOL

Hawkwood: Well, gonna wander. Be warm all.

^sparrow: sasha...what was your question?

sasha_: grinning at my Master

sasha_: well sparrow what can people do to avoid getting lost in the fantasy and stay grounded

fireNdark: make expectations realistic

fireNdark: ;)

^sparrow: well...they can use the brains they were born with to start

sasha_: right and how do you do that

lil`mouse: good question, I have wondered that too

sasha_: in this land of 10 inch you know whats

fireNdark laughs

sasha_: and long legged subs who always obey

^sparrow: first of can make an honest effort to educate your self...

^sparrow: you can go to quality references

^sparrow: you can realize that watching a bdsm channel is not the same as reading through the documents in the Human Sexuality Library

ShadowLrd: Also, you CAN use your brains

ShadowLrd: And common sense

^sparrow: don't be afraid to ask questions

fireNdark: gut instinct

ShadowLrd nods

ShadowLrd: Not gut instince

^sparrow: .me nods

ShadowLrd: instinct

ShadowLrd: Can lead you astray

ShadowLrd: Realllllllllllllllllllll fast

sasha_: bingo sparrow questions are so impotant and using your brain

^sparrow: that is quite true!!!!

sasha_: brb

fireNdark: not if your intune to your OWN instincts

ShadowLrd: Even then

^sparrow: you just about every case where it didn't work out, you will find that one of the partners had this niggling, tiny little doubt

^sparrow: that there was something...a hint...that didn't sound right

ShadowLrd: Exactly, ^sparrow

ShadowLrd: Trust yourself

^sparrow: and i think we have all been in that situation....

ShadowLrd: Know yourself

anglfire looks at sparrow....*nodding head*

^sparrow: but we want what we want so we ignore it or explain it away

^sparrow: well.....don't

^sparrow: it's your soul warning you

SirSirpen: well, sparrow, sometimes - during early meetings, both are extra sensitive to the others every word and thought - think everyone needs to be careful and think about what they say and do

^sparrow: that is why it is important to take things easy...not to rush into things

^sparrow: take the time to learn about each other

SirSirpen: yes, sparrow - zactly :))

SirSirpen: and as you pointed out - talking about it , and actually doing it are significantly different things

^sparrow: you's no failure on either side if things do not work out...

ShadowLrd: ^sparrow, repeat subNATION's URL, please


ShadowLrd 4,15 nods

ShadowLrd: The earlier you find it is not going to work, the better

^sparrow: yep

ShadowLrd: That is why you MUST, MUST, MUST get to know each other

ShadowLrd: Let's say, after a few meetings, you KNOW it is not going anywhere

ShadowLrd: Who is going to be hurt if you honestly call it quits?

ShadowLrd: You? The sub?

ShadowLrd: Both? Neither?

anglfire nods

SirSirpen: no one ShadowLrd - cause both will know it's not working

ShadowLrd: Yes.

SirSirpen: can't fake it - impossible

anglfire thinks it depends on why it did not work

ShadowLrd: But, if, on the other hand, they try to MAKE it work

ShadowLrd: Then they both will be hurt

^sparrow: that is true anglfire....

ShadowLrd: The ... why may be worked around

ShadowLrd: That is communication

^sparrow: but you want to try to get find out as soon as possible be fore anyone gets hurt or too involved

ShadowLrd: But, if there is no way to work around it

ShadowLrd: Then continuing the relationship will result in someone being hurt

ShadowLrd: Physically or emotionally

ShadowLrd: Exactly, ^sparrow

anglfire: communicatation is only good if both are open and TRUTHFUL

ShadowLrd ruffles ^sparrow's hair

ShadowLrd: Hummmmmm

ShadowLrd: Define ... truthful

ShadowLrd: There are certain ... areas where I'd lie like a rug

ShadowLrd: For ... reasons

ShadowLrd: <g>

^sparrow chuckles

anglfire: no deceptions between each other

ShadowLrd 4,15 sighs

ShadowLrd: Where the RELATIONSHIP is concerned

ShadowLrd: I'm sure you'd not tell a partner about the contents of documents if you worked in a classified facility

anglfire: one should be truthful about their feelings....about the other..

^sparrow: well....i'll tell ya, anglfire.......anyone who says that they NEVER lie and are ALWAYS lying

^sparrow: may i address something that i didn't in my speech?

^sparrow: and it has come up....

fireNdark: GA sparrow...please

^sparrow: it concerns appearances

^sparrow: which is something that any and all of us women are concerned about to some extent

^sparrow: it is very easy to say that appearances do not matter

^sparrow: bull hockey

^sparrow: they do

ShadowLrd bites his tongue

^sparrow: there is not one person here who will not look twice at an attractive member of the sex they are attracted to

anglfire shakes her head no....not to all

^sparrow: and given the option of speaking to an ugly person or an attractive person, who do you think will be chosen?

^sparrow: but

^sparrow: here..

^sparrow: we have the unique opportunity

^sparrow: to get to know the people

^sparrow: and NOT the faces or figures

ShadowLrd bites his tongue harder

^sparrow: i will tell you right now that i am short and fat...

anglfire is just fat.....not

^sparrow: but when i have met friends in r/l for the first time, it has not mattered

^sparrow: there is a joke that all women online are tall, thin and gorgeous and all men have 9 inch dicks

Arturo-: you mean we dont?

^sparrow: lol!

^sparrow: i don't know....tash?

^sparrow: <g>

Arturo- looks in his pants.. (damn)

ShadowLrd: <--Neanderthals have short ones

TheKttN: i agree sparrow, looks do matter, we can't fool ourselves and in rl, if the frienship is there the looks seem secondary. that is why it is so important even if you are really attractive to be friends first.

DCs^kitN has been lucky so far..*ducks*

^sparrow: anyway...i think that if you are honest and upfront about it, you will find that the real, genuine people really do not care

ShadowLrd: Where's my soap box?

^sparrow: yep

^sparrow hands ShadowLrd his soapbox

fireNdark braces

ShadowLrd: Ok

ShadowLrd: Look, folks

ShadowLrd: Male, female

ShadowLrd: We've all been fed the same lie by THEM

anglfire tosses in the bleach

ShadowLrd: A bunch of guys go out

ShadowLrd: They HAVE to have their tongues hanging out for the sexpot or there is SOMETHING wrong with them

ShadowLrd: Girls HAVE to look EXACTLY like the current sex pot or there is something wrong with them

ShadowLrd: Bulllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

ProvokeMe: not in my opinion...

ShadowLrd: A preson is a person, no matter how small, as Dr. Seusse once said

ShadowLrd: Agreed, ProvokeMe

ShadowLrd: Not in my opinion either

ShadowLrd: Hell, I'm ugly enough to break monitors

Arturo-: the wonderful thing about different taste is that someone always thinks you are attractive

anglfire: no wonder i liked Dr.Seuess

ShadowLrd: IF you take off the blinders that society seems to want you to wear

ProvokeMe: I can find something attractive in just about any woman....

ShadowLrd: Good for you.

ShadowLrd: My thoughts exactly

^sparrow: hehe...they call them tits

^sparrow: lol!!!

anglfire: LOLOL

ShadowLrd: Hell, I've been accused of being odd because I concentrate on the face and eyes first

fireNdark falls off chair laffin

anglfire looks down at hers.....hell...i should have an army then

^sparrow: oh are just plain odd!

^sparrow: <g>

ShadowLrd: Well, that too

ProvokeMe happens to look at eyes and smile first... all else is secondary

sasha_ smiles

ShadowLrd: ???????????

ShadowLrd: Er, we related or something, ProvokeMe?

ShadowLrd: You're stealing all my lines.

anglfire looks for that 10 incher every man has

ShadowLrd: <g>

^sparrow: lol!!!

Arturo-: welcome back angel

anglfire: LOL

SirSirpen: lol anglfire

DCs^kitN tries to clean out her ears

fireNdark compares the inches....."nope, not related"

sasha_: well i think there must be some chemistry and appeal... that is different for everyone but attrativness to me does matter... and i do not think i am shallow

SirSirpen looks for a copy of beach boys' California Dreamin'

anglfire: lol

SirSirpen: agreed sasha

Arturo-: Wasnt California Dreamin by the Mammas and the Pappas?

sasha_: I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder

TheKttN1: attractive is as attactive does. we all have areas we can accentuate.

ShadowLrd: Yes, Arturo

SirSirpen: yep Arturo - thinks your right on that one

anglfire: well....for me .....he can't be ignorant......angl hates ignorant people...none of them can spell right

^sparrow: besides, know you also want a brain too

sasha_: I agree Kttn I think personal hygene is a big thing for me

Arturo-: Its also in the hand of the beholder when i grab you by your crotch and lift you to your toes...

sasha_: everyone has something pretty

anglfire: ROFL

Arturo-: oops

^sparrow: lol Arturo!

sasha_: i feel it is important to feel attractive

SirSirpen smiles at anglefire again

Arturo-: disregard that last private message

sasha_: look at Barbra Striesand feature for feature it is not there

sasha_: but she is magnificent

ShadowLrd: sasha_, it is the Dom that is responsible for that

SirSirpen: any submissive who doesn't have pride in herself, is not really going to be attractive to many others

ShadowLrd: Now, Ann-Margaret

sasha_: oh Master

SirSirpen: or himself, as the case may be

sasha_: grin i am rubbing off on you

ShadowLrd: Very true, SirSirpen

sasha_: no pun intended

Arturo-: litterally and figuratively

sasha_: ShadowLrd there i can not agree

anglfire: OOOoooOOOOO theres that figure word again lolol

sasha_: a submissive comes to a relationship whole

sasha_: the confidence is in yourself

ShadowLrd: And?

ShadowLrd: The Dom is to remove the wholeness?

ShadowLrd: Hummmmmm

sasha_: no one should have to give it to you

sasha_: they can enhance it mold it but what if your Dom dies do you fell ugly again?

^sparrow: i think what ShadowLrd means is that it is part of the Master/sub relationship that the Master help to mold the sub...shape him/her to be the best they can be

Arturo-: what I find most attractive about a woman is if she *feels* attractive

sasha_: I hear to many submissives say i am submissive because i was raped made to feel ugly in this world of BDSM I am accepted

ShadowLrd 4,15 sighs

sasha_: agreed on that point

Arturo-: and if she sparkles..

ShadowLrd: All diamonds are hidden at first

^sparrow: oh...all too often you see, especially online, the so-called submissive who needs a Master because they cannot make a decision on their own

ShadowLrd: It takes work, patience, and love to make them sparkle

sasha_: ShadowLrd a Master can heal wounds and help

^sparrow: they don't need a master...they need therapy

sasha_: but I feel each submissive should search for her strengths

ShadowLrd: A Master should heal wounds, help, teach

anglfire wonders if she should be Domme...she makes ALL the decisions in her household.....<ponder>

Arturo-: there is a special sparkle a submissive has for her master... but i need her to sparkle on her own as well

sasha_: yes ShadowLord in my Masters care i am far more than i was but i feel I surrendered from a positio of strength

^sparrow smiles at anglfire

sasha_: does that make sense

ShadowLrd: Yes, it does, sasha_

^sparrow: most submissives are like that

ShadowLrd: We're actually saying the same thing

Arturo-: i expect her to have her own personal power

ShadowLrd: And a brain

sasha_: okie that is a good example of conversations that are good to have before meeting

sasha_: not just BDSM right?

Arturo-: as it makes her surrender that much more valuable

^sparrow: when you do not have control,,,,it's easy to give it up

anglfire: EXACTLY sparrow

sasha_: sparrow and that = giving up not giving your surrender i know both you and SL feel that way

sasha_: from previous conversations

^sparrow nods

^sparrow: yep

^sparrow chuckles

anglfire: ahhhh but to give up the control that is so makes for a total awesome feeling

^sparrow: i'm afraid that ShadowLrd has had his hands full with more than one way...

^sparrow: lol!!!

sasha_: smiling sparrow you do so much for new submissives on line

sasha_: you show your strength and surrender as well thank you

^sparrow: awwww, shucks

ShadowLrd swats ^sparrow's butt cyberly

^sparrow: lol!

angelwine: sparrow I wish to thank you very very much for this information and the insights you have provided into this lifestyle :)

sasha_: anglfire do you feel you give up areas of control in pieces or just give it all at once

^sparrow: thank you for listening, angelfire

anglfire: definatly in pieces.....i do not give up anything very easily....a person very rarely easily gives up something that means something to them....

sasha_ smiles at anglfire and the deeper you go the harder it seems

sasha_: you get to the core

sasha_: and the pieces are more complicated

anglfire: my will is something i cherish and take pride submit it to someone....takes a special who makes me WANT to give him this very special indeed

sasha_: master and i are headed to Total Power Exchange it will takes years i think

^sparrow: that is where a patient and understanding Dom helps a lot...

sasha_: ahhh we had a big debate is submission a gift

anglfire: submission is given....never taken

sasha_: can it really be called a gift

^sparrow: it is his responsibility to lead you on to be able to give more and more

sasha_: when you get so much in return?

anglfire: *blink*

^sparrow: sasha...that the giver gets pleasure does not diminish the gift

sasha_: Master I loved your take on this

sasha_: can you share it?

sasha_: please

sasha_: I am on the fence on this one

sasha_: still trying to decide

Arturo-: well.. i think i was saying it was a mutual exchange

Arturo-: that was conditional..

Arturo-: (human beings cannot do anything unconditionally imo)

sasha_: you also said we had discussed if our relationship would survive if you did not Dom me or i no longer submitted...

Arturo-: and.. I posed the question.. Is Mastery a gift?

ShadowLrd: Perhaps cro-magnons can't

sasha_: any opinions

ShadowLrd: Neanderthals ... can

Arturo-: i think you would be very unhappy if I ceased to master you

Arturo-: can what?

^sparrow: i don't think it is a gift anymore than submission is a gift to the submissive..

^sparrow: it is the response of the Dom to the gift of submission

ShadowLrd: Hummmmmmm

ShadowLrd: Look, folks

ShadowLrd: We're talking about a relationship here

^sparrow: in a cannot have submission without Mastery..

ShadowLrd: D/s is defined by what two people consider D/s

ShadowLrd: Yin and Yang

Arturo-: A gift is a wonderfully romantic way of lookig at it.. but

ShadowLrd 4,15 nods

ShadowLrd: But

Arturo-: in reality.. its an interpersonal relationship that meets the needs of both parties

Arturo-: an exchange

ShadowLrd: <weg>

ShadowLrd: Now why couldn't I have said that.

ShadowLrd: Excellent, Arturo

anglfire nods

Arturo-: i think all things i recieve in life are gifts..

sasha_: I often feel the submissive is said to give a gift and often the Masters gifts are not held up for what they are an equally precious treasure

Arturo-: so depending on how you look at it.. it could be a gift

TheKttN: and all the gifts that got played with and tossed aside. submission is not a gift. it isn't pretty, it is a struggle and a fight.

Arturo-: but.. the relationship depends on both parties continually meeting one anothers needs

sasha_: TheKttN1 I agree i struggle at times

sasha_: feel at lose ends

sasha_: say to Arturo help me through this

sasha_: or act like an idiot till he pulls me in by the scruff of the neck

TheKttN1: that is why you are where you are sasha, because he cares.

Arturo-: of course i *never* act like an idiot

Arturo-: do i darling

Arturo-: grins

TheKttN1: ^sparrow, thank you so much for tonight *hugs*

sasha_: I am glad to hear another submissive say out loud geeze sometimes this is hard

sasha_: someimes i just don't want to

sasha_: yet i am compelled

sasha_: need it

sasha_ looks at Master wellllllllllllllllll

TheKttN1: you can say geeze as long as you know who is right:) and after all this time i think you do.

Arturo-: its just acting.. angel.. Master Thespian

Arturo-: grins

sasha_: sparrow was marvelous

ShadowLrd: <sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh>

ShadowLrd: <whew>

sasha_: i think this was one of the best discussions

amyelf: ggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ShadowLrd: Thought I'd have to get on my soap box again

sasha_: amyelf cute

^sparrow: lol!

sasha_: welcome back

angelwine: thank you sasha:)

^sparrow: looks like mindspring hiccuped

ArturoAFK: btb

ArturoAFK: brb

sasha_: lol geeze i thought that was bite the butt tucking my bottom in

^sparrow: hehehe!

ArturoAFK: chomp

sasha_: hello secret

anglfire taps her monitor

anglfire: hello rosiest

rosiest: angl : )

sasha_ sneaks behind her master and hugs him so tightly

sasha_: raining 1 gillion kisses on his face

ArturoAFK leans back into the hug and smiles

ArturoAFK: mmmmmmmmm

sasha_: Master may we leave

ArturoAFK: yes my angel

sasha_: we have some things to do?

ArturoAFK: good night all

ArturoAFK: yes we do

sasha_ rises and bids all good night

ArturoAFK: thanks sparrow..

^sparrow: it was my pleasure Sir

anglfire: bye sasha and Arturo Sir

angelwine: goodnight sasha and Arturo, Sir.

ArturoAFK smiles a good night all

sasha_: thank you ShadowLord for all you have given sparrow so she could share your combined wisdom with us

ShadowLrd: ??????

ShadowLrd: Moi?

sasha_: yes Sir

^sparrow chuckles

ShadowLrd: 4,15 We are ... shadow. What ^sparrow is ... she always was.

sasha_: sparrow speaks of you with reverance

^sparrow: well...if there is nothing more questions...i will take my leave as well....

TheKttN: *hugs* sparrow and thank you for everything

^sparrow: thank you for having me, TheKttN

ShadowLrd: And with that

ShadowLrd: 4,15 {{{{{{{{{{ ^sparrow }}}}}}}}}}

ShadowLrd: Good job, ^sparrow

ShadowLrd: You're hired

^sparrow: hehe!

^sparrow curtsies to ShadowLrd

^sparrow: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ ShadowLrd }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

ShadowLrd: Folks, it was ... cy ber

^sparrow: night Sir

ShadowLrd: See you all the other side of the Star Bow

ShadowLrd: We return to the shadows

angelwine: goodnight sparrow ;) thanks you have been most helpful.

^sparrow: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ TheKttN }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

^sparrow: thanks angelwine

^sparrow: good night!

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