Submissive NOT Stupid
Speaker: Lucasta
March 19,1997

<Sumptuous> Without any further adieu, #Submission_Discuss offer's a very warm welcome to Lucasta! Begin, whenever you are ready please..;)

<Lucasta> Thank you very much, Sumptuous, for the very generous words

<Lucasta> And thank you all for welcoming me so kindly

<Lucasta> (you may change your minds later.....but I'll revel in it while it lasts *wink*)

<Lucasta> here goes, but please remember....these are my thoughts, my opinions.... my perspective....

<Lucasta> Some people are driven by their needs, others merely guided. Because of this, logic is often not the first rung in any ladder of relationship.

<Lucasta> Can the line be comfortably drawn for where one "settles" by having some, but not all, of their needs met and where standards may be too high?

<Lucasta> In alternative lifestyle communities, it is often more difficult to meet like-minded people than it is in their vanilla counterparts. So, do we sometimes settle for what we think is the best we can get as opposed to what we dream of? It happens. We see it in our friends, maybe even in our own relationships. Whether it be conditioning or innate sense, many people (not just women, though they are more conditioned to this state) settle for less than what they want because they feel the need to belong to someone.

<Lucasta> This can be a powerful aphrodisiac and not just a sexual one.

<Lucasta> The pull of being in a relationship, to seek the comfort, companionship and the feeling of loving someone is one of the strongest we may ever feel. To focus on female submissives, these desires are extremely strong. It is not merely for the comfort of a relationship but also for the need to submit. A very powerful need in some....once it is discovered. In fact, for many of us do not feel "complete" if we do not have the opportunity to submit to someone special.

<Lucasta> Unfortunately, because of this doubled need, many often make rash decisions to find this fulfillment and often decide wrongly.

<Lucasta> The question may sometimes even be: has a decision based on mature judgment been made, or was it just a rush towards fantasies, dreams and desire?

<Lucasta> There are many women who are subs only because they are looking for a man to be responsible for them, to make their decisions and take complete care of them. A woman like this may be much more likely to "settle" as long as he responsibility for her life is taken from her. In such cases it is highly questionable whether any such decision is based on submissive emotions or...on a lack of being able to take responsibility for your own life.

<Lucasta> And there are subs who have not been able (for whatever reasons) to deal with issues from their past. Any person - not just a submissive - who is in this position is more likely to "settle" for less than what she wants because these issues help to lessen her sense of self-esteem.

<Lucasta> Which brings about one of the most difficult issues to deal with in a healthy D/s relationship.

<Lucasta> Many subs suffer from a lack of self-esteem.

<Lucasta> It seems to be a common bond between many submissives within our community. This may be where the nurture versus nature leans toward the environment (nurture) side.

<Lucasta> Low self esteem frequently equates to a sense of inferiority which is often equated to the role of the submissive. It is almost a natural den for those who do not feel themselves "worthy." And this, is the saddest part of our community.

<Lucasta> However, there are many wonderful stories of how a good dominant can help his submissive to get past these feeling of low self worth.

<Lucasta> though it is important not to rely on this...

<Lucasta> nor to put this sort of undue pressure on a dominant...

<Lucasta> but...

<Lucasta> There is nothing so incredibly warming and supportive as the feeling received when your dominant assures you that your actions, your love and your words are worthy of his own love. The rewards of being submissive with a good dominant is in the knowing that to be his submissive is a position to be proud of and pride equates quite well with self worth.

<Lucasta> Having said all this, there is one point which I feel is imperative to be made to any new (or experien ced) submissive.

<Lucasta> You--and only you--are responsible for yourself and, most importantly, for the choices you make.

<Lucasta> I firmly believe that in order to have a healthy power exchange relationship, the submissive needs to be in control of herself, first. Otherwise, how can she relinquish that control to another?

<Lucasta> If you are looking for someone to take all your responsibility for yourself away from you, you might want to step back a bit and think about what you're really asking for.

<Lucasta> Is it fair to a dominant to believe you are submitting to him by choice when what you may be doing is giving up because you cannot handle your own life any more?

<Lucasta> I also believe that there are dominants out there who do not want to dominate another person to fulfill some deep-rooted need to exercise control over another, to have them willingly submit to *them* when they would not submit to another. Instead, they have needs which require that they have someone to care for, to be completely responsible for. They need, in order to be fulfilled, to have someone dependent upon them for everything.

<Lucasta> What I'm trying to say is that if there are people on one side of a lifestyle (or slash, if you will) who have certain needs, then there is likely someone on the other side of the slash who has those needs as well.

<Lucasta> If you settle for the first person who shows you attention, if you try to make yourself *fit* his or her ideals, you are settling for less than you need or desire. The wonders of submission is that a submissive *chooses* to submit to a particular dominant. It is the joys of dominance that this particular submissive has *chosen* to submit to him/her.

<Lucasta> The journey is to take the qualities of a particular submissive and guide her or him, mold these virtues into the slave who is the best slave s/he can be for this particular Dom or Master or Mistress. It is not a journey to force the sub (or the Dom) to fit into a space they were not intended to go.

<Lucasta> In order to fit a square peg into a round hole, you have to chop off the edges and whittle away the base of that peg until it no longer resembles the toy you initially chose to play with. Instead, we might think of taking a round peg and putting it into a larger round hole. Where you add to the peg, strengthening the qualities and the virtues and making it a stronger toy than the one we first picked up.

<Lucasta> If either Dom or sub "settles" because they fear there is no one out there who will fit them better, or if they rush into a relationship they *think* is perfect for them (but haven't taken the time to find out first) they are doing themselves--and their partner--a great disservice.

<Lucasta> A friend describes it like this: That's like saying "It would be such a nice house if it had a foundation."

<Lucasta> Remember, we're submissive, not stupid.

<Lucasta> We have a responsibility to make the right choices for ourselves.

<Lucasta> We have the responsibility to make sure that we are having our needs met because if we aren't, we can't be the submissive we need to be to serve our dominant well.

<Lucasta> We have a responsibility to find, for ourselves, the dominant who will nurture us, not cut us off at the knees to make us fit the mold s/he wants.

<Lucasta> We have a responsibility to be open and honest, not just with our dominant partner, but with ourselves.

<Lucasta> We have the responsibility to make *rational* choices about the direction we choose to head in and the dominant we choose to be with.

<Lucasta> We have the responsibility to assure that we can be the best submissive or slave we can for the dominant we've chosen and we cannot do that if we've chosen wrong.

<Lucasta> We have the responsibility to not rush into a commitment of offering ourselves to another as a slave, or submissive to be controlled by another, until we are assured that there is a basis there for a relationship with is entwined with, but extends beyond, the power exchange.

<Lucasta> We have the responsibility to submit but to not do so foolishly.

<Lucasta> We are responsible for ourselves, even as we give control of ourselves to another.

<Lucasta> I think this is a good stopping point for this part of the talk...

<ldywhispr> OPEN QUEUE

<ldywhispr> QUEUE shedevyl, slavetoy

<shedevyl> I am so happy to hear this and agree with you completely. However, you made one statement which I will paste, that I just need clarification on. Did the following statement mean that the journey is from submission to slavery? I am asking because of the wording used.

<shedevyl> The journey is to take the qualities of a particular submissive and guide her or him,

<shedevyl> <Lucasta> mold these virtues into the slave who is the best slave s/he can be for this particular Dom or Mast er or Mistress.

<Lucasta> whoa...give me a sec to scroll back please

<shedevyl> While you're scrolling I'll make a statement, okay?

<shedevyl> I have often witnessed a phenomenon I don't claim to understand. That is that, the sub suffers from low self esteem. And then seeks out a Dom that actually reinforces it, rather than brings her out of it.

<Lucasta> this seems to be much of what I've seen too, shedevyl...however, I think it is the conscious *intention* of the submissive to find that dominant who will make her "all better" the subconscious is to confirm her own believe that she is unworthy

<shedevyl> Thanks :)

<Lucasta> Uh, one more thing....I think that's why "fit" is so important.

<ldywhispr> GA slavetoy

Action: Lucasta hopes Shayde will rejoin the queue

<slavetoy> thank you L for your perspectives i agree whole confussion comes from...1. when as a sub i express my desires and limits i am critized for not being a "True Slave/Sub". This admonishment makes me do i best react?

<Lucasta> by running quickly in the opposite direction?

<Lucasta> *chuckle* seriously....this is a *very* common experience, is it not, submissives? and this is the problem with getting involved with someone who would rather cut you off at the knees than help you to grow...I tend to try and talk more with these sorts of people...try to make them see the bigger picture... that maybe not all submissives fit one mold and they would be happy to learn such a thing..unfortunately, it doesn't always work...but it can be fun to try *wink*

<slavetoy> 2. I deny that i am not a true sub...i just get mad i keep Losing My Masters ? I guess i need to reevaluate ? I have 10 years as a real life sub i try to listen and learn thank you L i appreciate it

<Lucasta> slavetoy, this discussion was meant for someone like understand that you have the right AND the responsibility to not settle

<slavetoy> :)))

<Lucasta> to settle for less than you deserve or need...SOMEone out there fits you just understand your worth and wait for the right dominant and have *fun* finding who that person will be

<ldywhispr> GA rabbit

<rabbit-> ok...

<rabbit-> first of all i see people getting lost in the semantics and not addressing the content i see it...we are individuals first...bringing our unique individuality to a relationship

<Lucasta> yes, which is why finding the right fit is so important

<rabbit-> where a submissive (of any gender) can get into by giving up that uniquness to become something they may not be...and then not being happy because we don't fit in any one mold (and neither do dominants)

<Lucasta> exactly (IMO)

<rabbit-> it would be a sad lifestyle indeed of all subs were the same....and all Doms tried to ensure that not all, but some--especially those who lack a sense of self--will do so as well, rabbit because the *whole* thing about D/ that we look for structure of some kind...when you've not the experience to ensure or create your own structure you tend to look to someone elses....with confidence which comes from experience, many of these dominants will grow into wonderful dom/mes even if you view them as "wannabes" now

<rabbit-> submission is giving themselves...not giving up themselves

<rabbit-> thanks for listening...done

<Lucasta> *smile* thanks for adding

<Nihl> I can only reiterate what rabbit has already brought up, as she 'stole' my fire. : ) However...the D/s relationship is that, a relationship

<Lucasta> *chuckle*

Action: Lucasta waits for that "however.." (or more)

<Nihl> which means 2 people are involved 2 processes of decision making are to be met and compromised into a single path I value very highly the inputs of my partner and see the relationship grow, as we grow together

<Lucasta> yes...though in some relationships, the compromise is more of a *choice* by the submissive to acquiesce

<Lucasta> exactly

<Nihl> end of statement, as rabbit made the core of my point already ; )

<Lucasta> my only comment to that is that growth should not be forced... that it should be guided and explored together

<Lucasta> hence again, we return to "fit"

<ldywhispr> GA Arturo

Action: Lucasta worries when Arturo takes this long to comment *grin*

<Arturo-> I was saying ... the stronger the submissive the greater the gift

<Lucasta> *laugh*

<Lucasta> ah....if the dominant looks for a strong submissive, yes

<Arturo-> I often tell sasha... ( who if you know her is a ve ry strong woman/submissive) to guard her sense of self.. it is what i find incredably attractive

<Lucasta> and a heck of a gal, besides, Arturo *grin*

<Arturo-> ( awsome Luc - smiling )

<Lucasta> some, especially those with low self-esteem...find that difficut to do...especially if they are nurtured not to...and we know that some are...and, it is not an easy thing for those of us strong submissive to do (and I believe most would agree)...but when that balance is struck...we fly free like we never have before (am I not right?)

<Arturo-> I tell her to not lose herself in her surrender. I want to share in who she is..not make her my puppet

<Lucasta> yes...because then the submissive is no longer the one you originally chose

<Lucasta> nor is she a "better" one that you chose

<Arturo-> I find it exciting to step into her world as a dom.. its a delicate balance to maintain strong dominaton..

<Arturo-> yet guard her sense of self

<Lucasta> definitely something both Dom and sub must work at and a Dom(me) needs to maintain a sense of self as just keep up with the growth of his/her submissive!

<Arturo-> its a constant process Luc.. I concur

<Arturo-> ego strength in both parties is essential imo

<ldywhispr> GA FIRSTLORD


<FIRSTLORD> I find the realisation of the inner glow of my submissive the greatest reward I can have a dom she has grown I believe and I had not realised how much until I felt her inner peace

<FIRSTLORD> a peace she has shown me and allowed me to share....sounds like Nirvana doesn't it?

<Lucasta> as a submissive, FirstLord, I can tell you it *is* like Nirvana...when you find the *right* partner for you.

<FIRSTLORD> so the suggestion I have is that if as a dom you watch carefully the growth of your submissive you will learn form it too.

<Lucasta> can't argue with you at all there, FirstLord

<ldywhispr> QUEUE CatsKitN

<CatsKitN> i was just going to make the comment that one thing i had to learn about submission is that i was not going to lose myself...but become more of who i am by accepting who i am...which to me is the first step a submissive must take in the journey to find the right match for themself

Action: Lucasta quiet applauds CatsKitN

<CatsKitN> hmm did i just talk in one big circle or what..

<Lucasta> Well, isn't that what life's all about, CatsKitN?

<CatsKitN> *blush* thank You Lucasta

<Lucasta> you begin one grow and explore and return to *you* but a better, different you (hopefully)

<CatsKitN> yes..but so many seem unwilling to accept who they are

<CatsKitN> try to fit into what others want them to be

<Lucasta> and that's a sign of low self-worth...that's why I strongly believe that a submissive *must* be in control of his/herself before they can relinquish any of that control to another

<CatsKitN> and i feel badly when i see Doms who are willing to prey about submissives who are willing to change at a drop of a command instead of taking the time to find someone who compliments their wants needs and desires

<ldywhispr> GA Sumptuous

<Sumptuous> I would just like to add that i feel my submission is a gift and i dont give it is a whole hearted thing and chooseing a Master or Mistress is a very serious choice and maintaining that relationship means continual growth of both love, commitment and also in breaking down boundaries.

<Lucasta> I think both Sumptuous' and CatsKitN's comments are related...

Action: Sumptuous basically agrees with KitN ..:)))

<Lucasta> it is a tremendous gift (as is dominance) which needs to be protected by its owner...that's why it's called a "power exchange" IMO

<Lucasta> and to give it without thought, or to accept it without intent to accept the gift which was *relinquished* not the gift you want to not an exchange, but a butting of heads (again, in my opinion)

Action: Sumptuous nods...yes power exchange on the top or bottom is very rewarding when done with someone you love.

<MindFul1> I want to concur with CatsKitN that knowing oneself is crucial, for both the Dom and the sub. The Dom, I think, *must* provide a solidity in the relationship. And the sub must know herself well enough to recognize whether a particular Dom is the right one, as Lucasta said. I have a suggestion and would like comments...

<MindFul1> To me, writing is very powerful.

<MindFul1> I suggest that both write down who they believe themselves to be just the act of writing will force clear thinking....whether you share the writing is up to you, it could be very helpful but just going through the process will help crystallize decisions.

< ;MindFul1> Do you advise this as a method, Lucasta, or are there other ways that also work well?

<Lucasta> Mindful, not only do I second that, the dom(me) and sub grow within the relationship, they can look back to where they were....and realize growth they did not even know not only helps focus where they are at now, but will help to dissuade doubts they may have...

<Lucasta> I do have another suggestion though....

<Lucasta> I strongly advocate that all D/s'ers...find others either via the computer or real life...who are not their partners...and exchange with them...not power but ideas, thoughts, fears...discussions such as this are a wonderful forum... and I will never stop supporting such ideas like this

<MindFul1> I agree. For me, it has been VERY powerful

.<MindFul1> First, and foremost, to know who I am in this world.

<Lucasta> You have no idea, if you've not met others in real life, how powerfully reassuring it is to be able to open up.

<MindFul1> then I can communicate that clearly, and very easily determine whether any other person is a reflection of my values

<MindFul1> the process ought to work just as well for a submissive

<MindFul1> yes..

<MindFul1> You mean sort of a reality check, if you will?

<MindFul1> I think those things are very useful in arriving at your own clear thinking about who you are and what is important to you

<MindFul1> I've seen some who seem to enter into relationships lightly, as you pointed out and I really think that to achieve real happiness takes a certain discipline and work

<MindFul1> I've spoken my piece. thank you. ga

Ac tion: Lucasta waits for PapaHem...

<ldywhispr> GA PapaHem

<PapaHem> thank you

<PapaHem> you just brought up an idea that i havent seen expressed Lucasta: " it is a tremendous gift (as is dominance) " - Dominance is indeed a Gift also there is a lot more than just Power being mutually exchanged in these relationships

<Lucasta> no kidding *grin* I treasure my Dom's gift to me as much as my own, PapaHem

<PapaHem> in the case of my Vixen, she and i both give to one another

<PapaHem> we ebb and flow like the tide

<Lucasta> I like that analogy

<PapaHem> i like what you said about the difference between a sub who truly wishes to submit, and one who merely wants a Dom to assume responsibilities for her

<PapaHem> my Vixen never drains me - i am strengthened by her submission

<PapaHem> and in turn, Vixen is strengthened rather than smothered by my Domination

Action: PapaHem suggests John Donne's "Valediction Forbidding Mourning"

<PapaHem> i wont recite the whole poem here - but it is essential to our philosophy

Action: PapaHem is finished

<Kree> I agree with Mindful abut the value of writing things...especially for people that have IRC as their main or only thrust...if people knew each other well enough to write and describe needs and desires in an honest manner the Dom 'de jeure world of IRC might not have the revolveing collar as a symbol. For those heading r/l it is an excellent exercize to see who they think the other is and is a good way of defining the relationship after a negotiati

<Kree> end of commenrts

<Lucasta> Kree, you lead right into the second part of my comments tonight

<Kree> always the straight man

<Lucasta> as well as reiterate what I've said (once again) about "fit"

<Sumptuous> Okay everyone we have another half of Lucasta's speach comming up so we are going to move things along here...:)

Action: Lucasta takes a chance and proceeds.....

<Lucasta> Taking all this a step farther,

<Lucasta> Many of you will likely disagree with some of what I am about to say...some might even take offense....But I simply ask that you take the spirit of what I am saying, not necessarily the examples I use, into account....And think about what I am suggesting. Thanks.

<Lucasta> let's talk about the responsibility of being honest when online or with others in the community. Because, the more honest you are, the more likely you will find the dominant who fits you best.

<Lucasta> On discussion channels which allow trolling and posturing two things happen.

<Lucasta> First, any serious discussion is consistently interrupted by subs kneeling and serving and the like and, on some channels, people appreciate the opportunity to discuss and discuss only--I know this because those on my channel (#juncture on dalnet) have told me and because they keep coming back.

<Lucasta> Second inevitably, there is a competition among the subs present.

<Lucasta> Who has the least number of limits?

<Lucasta> Who is the more submissive submissive?

<Lucasta> That sort of thing. It really takes away from the discussion as well.

<Lucasta> I won't even mention Doms trying to show off their domliness. *chuckle*

<Lucasta> And third, it is disheartening to see women vie with others to try to attract the attention of the Doms in the "room."

<Lucasta> Especially when they could be working together to grow as submissives (or as dominants, as the case may be)

<Lucasta> I feel that the attraction should be to the person first and not to the ability to show--through words on a screen, mind you--how submissive s/he is or how dominant s/he is. But, I've already been through all that.

<Lucasta> Take me, for example. I'm fairly good with words and have a relatively quick wit. I have never publicly scened on a channel. I never postured or ever did anything to attract the local doms, either.

<Lucasta> I was just who I am and you know what?

<Lucasta> I attracted more Doms when I was on channels than I knew what to do with.

<Lucasta> More importantly, I attracted Doms who had a clue as to what *I* wanted/needed, not the guys who were there for cyber-sex only or who did not "fit" well with me. But, I had my choice of men (and women) to get to know and I chose well.

<Lucasta> It did not happen overnight but I would say within three weeks I had more than enough and it still doesn't stop, even though I'm very attached and rarely go on channels.

<Lucasta> Not trying to say I'm a wunnerful lil sub (well, I am *grin* but that's not my point *wink*) but that I can type fast, write well and don't "put on."

<Lucasta> I've seen women who are very likely "feisty" subs show this through exhibiting their feisty personality, not through trolling for "punishment" from any Dom on the channel in hopes something might develop.

<Lucasta> I've seen very demure personalities come through without having to kneel or curtsey as one enters a channel.

<Lucasta> And, I've seen relationships develop much more strongly between those who are honest with who they are online, because there's much less to worry about when you meet if you've been who you are when you're virtual.

<Lucasta> So, I think if a sub wants to find a dominant who fits her best, (or him, best) then she needs to be the woman she is online as she is when she's not behind the computer screen. (or the man he is...)

<Lucasta> Of course, I believe the same applies to Doms.

<Lucasta> I'm not trying to say that people should be boring on channels

<Lucasta> Heaven forbid!

<Lucasta> But, entering a room and curtseying "to all the Masters and Mistresses" is a bit presumptuous and (well to many of us, anyway) indicates a person who feels they cannot shine through their own personalities.

<Lucasta> Now, I will admit that some will just do this because it's fun and comfortable for them and that's their choice, but this is how it comes off to many others who see you on channel.

<Lucasta> I guess what I'm really saying is that you should stop a minute.

<Lucasta> (those boxes are .....)

<Lucasta> and think about the sort of person you're trying to attract-as a partner or as a friend- and be the person you are, for that will likely attract for you, the type of partner which best fits you.

<Lucasta> Along these same lines, while I know that many of us believe our partners are the most incredible people in the world.

<Lucasta> to constantly remind others through glowing (I would say, "gushy" but most others wouldn't *grin*) prose about how wonderful he or she is. Not only gets old after a short while, but tends to sound like you're trying to convince yourself, instead of convincing others.

<Lucasta> I'm not trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't behave in the way they want; or say the things they want to say; but that we should all step back, yet again; and think about what our words and actions are saying about ourselves.

<Lucasta> Someone I know, calls it "verbal exhibitionism"

<Lucasta> Nothing wrong with exhibitionism as long as those you're exhibiting yourself to aren't offended by it.

<Lucasta> And, if you want to find a partner based on the submissive you are, not the woman or man you are (which includes your submission) then go for it.

<Lucasta> If you want a partner who wants you--all of you--then be yourself.

<Lucasta> I met a dominant just the other night and I think he summed it up better than I ever could:

<Lucasta> All good things in life start with dignity

<Lucasta> Just my opinion. We're submissive, not stupid. Dominant, not dumb. Action: Lucasta dons her flame proof vest and waits

<ldywhispr> OPEN QUEUE

<ldywhispr> QUEUE slavetoy

<ldywhispr> GA slavetoy

Action: Kree hands Lu a fire extiguisher and applauds the idea of honesty and is also tired of the self serving attempts I see by people to convince themselvesat the espense of other's patience

<slavetoy> i agree 100 % L very well stated, i use the very same verbage, but i am condemed for ie

Action: Lucasta accepts the extinguisher and aims it as unobtrusively as possible

<Lucasta> slavetoy, sometimes it may be within the way it's I'm given the forum...but look what *rightly* happened when I did not proof my words well terms, not my meaning came through

<slavetoy> listening is a great skill i have learned

<slavetoy> you have done a magnificant job i thank you IMO

<Lucasta> a very important skill for any dominant or submissive, slavetoy

Action: slavetoy is done

<Lucasta> thank you, slavetoy! Not sure if all agree though *wink*

<Sumpt> GA sabrinaM

<sabrina{M> With respect Lu, to your comment regarding being yourself on channel, i met my Dom through Telepersonals. There is another place that you have to be who you are or things can be disasterous.

<GRANDMSTR> Lucasta I agree with your opinion and feel that scening should be in private ..not public display..however I also believe that sometimes a person that is extremely expressive may wish to express the love or adoration that they have for someone for ALL to see in being "proud" or the relationship that they are in!

<Lucasta> first, to sabrina....

<Lucasta> it is not only important in any virtual relationship but in the real world as well..

<sabrina{M> that was my point, be who you are....nothing more, nothing less

<Lucasta> I've seen people at clubs "posture" as well then we get together on our own and they're completely different!

<Lucasta> and they don't understand why they do not find the "good" dominants or submissives

<sabrina{M> anyway, that is all i had to say.

<ldywhispr> GA kanis{R}

<kanisi{R}> Lucasta...

<Lucasta> (just in case you're all wondering, I'm more used to the freeflowing, open discussions we this is an unfamiliar format to me)

<Lucasta> (but I like it! Don't get flamed all at once!)

<kanisi{R}> Ok, so assuming *I* am being honest on irc...or in r/l, whatever...if the *other* person, in this case Dom, is does me little help in matching up well...

<kanisi{R}> which is where I think Kree and I'm sorry I forget the other name's, writing comes in as an excellent tool...better than telephone, which also is easier to "fake" a persona.

<Lucasta> I have a little system I've sort of evolved over time, kanisi....first I listen to my head (and his)....and then I listen to my gut is rather expressive...if I have any doubts, I go with them.... and I *never* *ever* play with any Dom I've met via irc the first time we meet

<Lucasta> I spend time getting to know him first...I may be 41 years old...I may have waited almost my whole life to find people in thislifestyle...but I believe I have plenty of make *wise*informed* choices...sometimes, you choose poorly, especially if the Dom(me) is *extremely* clever...but I would say, if you use common sense...that will only happen 1 out of 100 times.

<Lucasta> oh, and follow what your mind *and* body tell you--it usually works

<Lucasta> I'm done....

<kanisi{R}> Thank you.

<Lucasta> or maybe we're the only ones here, kanisi! *grin*

<Lucasta> like an alternate universe of some sort...

<kanisi{R}> Got it.

 (the lag and splits hit here and some of our questions were lost so we move to open forum)

<Sumpt> okay lets just move to OPEN FORUM for those who can see us

<Lucasta> *chuckle* Good move, Sumptuous

<Lucasta> 'course you know I'm thrilled that the net is cooperating...otherwise I think I'd be pretty warm by now

<Sumpt> LOL Lucasta

<Lucasta> I just did a channel ping,'s not looking good

<Sumpt> yea Lucasta hmmm lets give it a few i will change the topic to the server of choice here

<Lucasta> sounds good to me

Action: Kree staples Lu's feet tothe channel

<Lucasta> <adjusting vest>

<Lucasta> hey! I'm on the right channel! *grin*

<Lucasta> <--follows orders well *wink*

<Kree> heh heh

<Lucasta> 'course, it was the only one I could get on

<Kree> Lu I intend to have a cnference with a gusher and show those comments ....I have been saying that I feel they are trying to create a front and convince themselves and the rest of us have to suffer for said it well!

Submissive NOT Stupid (part2)

<Lucasta>'s such a difficult line to draw...and one of the things I did not address was the dominant ordering the submissive to treat him/her in a prescribed manner on channel...that is a difficult thing to address, really...though it may well be that the dominant is not secure in his/her position and needs it reconfirmed to others...*or* that s/he just likes it!

<Lucasta> on channel or in real.

<Lucasta> but I think people need to look at their motives *and* take others into consideration, as well

<Sumpt> i myself do greet FIRSTLORD in a submissive mannor. But it is something we both love to do and i do it for him alone not for anyone else...i know how much it pleases him.

<Lucasta> what would you consider a "submissive manner" Sumpt?

<Lucasta> *chuckle* I can see HetroPunk is a fan of "verbal exhibitionism" *grin*

<Sumpt> well i have some written greetings i use as popups that i write for him, i change them often and i liek them because i can use my spell checker LOL want to see one?

<Lucasta> let me ask you this, Sumpt.....

<Lucasta> if you "walk" into a channel and see your master...

<Sumpt> sure Lucasta..:)

<Lucasta> why wouldn't you greet him as you felt for the moment, as opposed to using something pre-written?

<Sumpt> well because they are poetic almost and i do also greet him as i feel

<Lucasta> *smile* you continue to use popups and the like while you are both on channel?

<FIRSTLORD> I also love it and I know Sumptuous loves to make her pop-ups and puts a lot of thought into them.

<Sumpt> Lucasta i also have enough of them that the vary with my moods i am away from him often and surprise him with new ones like little gifts of love often i send them to him with acompanying pics

Action: rabbit- smiles at Sumpt

<Sumpt> no Lucasta just for my greeting

<Lucasta> that's why I think it's a tough line to draw, FirstLord...

<FIRSTLORD> It is just a greeting thing

<FIRSTLORD> We treat it as fun.

<Lucasta> and Sumpt....I don't think most would have a problem with a one-time thing...

<dimi^> This discussion has, so far, meandered from the topic, in my opinion. I'm failing to see where "submissive, not stupid" fits in. At any rate, I think a lot of people think "submissive" is synonymous with "sub-human", therefore we're looked at as mindless objects, not meant to have "brains". Very often I see people say things as if we (subs) aren't even there. And some may be so bold as to say, "I'm tired of dealing with those st

<dimi^> What is your opinion on that, Lucasta?

<FIRSTLORD> My world would not fall apart if Sumptuous stopped doing it :)

<Lucasta> just the continual running, serving, gushing that's frequently uncomfortable to watch for many

<Sumpt> ACTION sees FIRSTLORD, slave bells *jingle* softly on my obediently decorated hips & ankles as I go to him, presenting myself with unparalleled servitude. Head high, revealing the jeweled collar on my delicate throat, arms folded behind my arched back exposing my full naked breasts. Bare bottom rested comfortably on my heals, as my eyes pause on his before lowering...confessing wordlessly the carnal desire that divulges itself secretly in t

<Sumpt> that is an example Lucasta

<Lucasta> whew.....okay, let's take dimi's comments first...

<Lucasta> any person who views a submissive as less than human--if that is *not* how that submissive chooses to be *not* a dominant I would ever be able to hold any respect for...and that's just the point, isn't it?

<Lucasta> Who *I* respect....who *you* respect?

<Lucasta> and, if a submissive does not respect him/herself first...then the problem begins with them...

<Lucasta> the submissive, not stupid term was specifically chosen for those people...who do not view submissives as having minds of their own....or who feel submissives have no self-responsibilities...or who feel, as submissives.... that they are not worthy of making choices for themselves--including, should they want--to not make any more choices

<Lucasta> It describes submissives who make choices which are "settling" for less than they need/want because of not having enough self-worth

<Kree> Lu as a further answer to dimi's also said Dom or dumb...I suggest people get a sheet of paper and write dominant on one side and dunb onthe other and do 2 columns

<Lucasta> yes Kree....everything I've said pretty much applies to dominants as well

<Lucasta> dominants don't come with confidence or a sense of self-worth just because they've given themselves the title ...

<Lucasta> and, in fact, may find it more difficult to maintain confidence in a D/s relationship...

<Lucasta> it's a HELLUVA responsibility to control another...even if just for a night

<dimi^> I see it happen repeatedly, and you're right, these are people I wouldn't choose to respect and/or submit to. It amazes me, though, how many other dominants AS WELL AS submissives(and this saddens me), are so quick to jump all over those of us who speak against such behavior and question oursubmissiveness.

<swansong^> Thank you, Lucasta, for an excellent speech...I agree completely...and would add two would be nice if everyone did march to the beat of *their* own drummer...but newbies often become caught up in the "performances" of others believing that is the accepted behavior and out come the macros...I was there once...also too...

<Lucasta> swansong, so very true....

<Lucasta> and the important thing is to allow both dominants and submissives to come to there *own* decisions, their own definitions, their own "fit"...

<Lucasta> which is why *discussion* and interaction is SO important

<swansong^> honesty...when a person can get down to bare bone facts...i.e. yes, I snore, yes, I haev stretch marks...whatever....then they are being honest....please remember, the mind is capable of filling in all the missing info...and unfortunately, it always does so biased in favor of the lover.

<Arturo-> Luc - The only time i get annoyed with "gushing" as you put it... is when its a macro...and everyone gets the same expressino verbatum.

<Arturo-> its just how some people express themselves on IRC

Action: Sumptuous *giggles* thinking of my popups i use as a greeting to my Master, well to each their own.

<Kree> dimi anyone that has to see a submissive as sub-human is one that has to bring others down to a level they can me that is a sign of weakness not dominance

<Arturo-> I imagine it helps some get themselves into a certain mind set

<Lucasta> Arturo, I couldn't agree more...and if I had my own way, I'd ask everyone to keep their "gushing" to private /msg...however!

<dimi^> I agree, Kree. :)

<Lucasta> I never have a problem with talking about their partners in long as it is discussion...

<Lucasta> but this is *MY* opinion....

<Sumptuous> Kree well said Sir!

<Arturo-> i dont see what the big deal is.. i enjoy it if its not over done

<Lucasta> I can choose to leave a channel if it gets too much for me.

<Sumptuous> there is a time and a place for public scening i know in #SUbmission we are trying to promote it more....i dont normally do it but i do love to watch a good public scene myself/

<Lucasta> Arturo, it's not a big deal...especially when expressed with sincerity and in moderation.

<FIRSTLORD> Makes us realise that others don't always see the greetings the way we see them Sumptuous.

<Arturo-> just a virtual expression of what they would do in r/l ... or see them selves doing at any rate

<Lucasta> FIRSTLORD, that is exactly my point.

<Sumptuous> i dont feel someone has the right to heckle another persons display of love or of their public scene some people are exhabitionists

<Sumptuous> FIRSTLORD well others can see it how they wish i dont do it for them i do it for YOU!

<wildo> a person is a submissive because he or she wonts 5he thrill of being controlled the may be verystrong people in real life

<Kree> Lu often people can not leave a channel. but there are private messages available for gushing...I have a new limit in my channel of 15gph....if someone does more than 15 gushes per hour we ticket them

<FIRSTLORD> But Lu is saying that my meat is anothers mans poison.

<Lucasta> Sumptuous, my *other* point....examine your own motives...if they are to express yourself instead of trying to convince others of the wonders of your relationship, I don't think most would have a problem with it

<Sumptuous> i would rather see a couple displaying love then bitching or with others on line or acting like bratty fools.

<Lucasta> thanks, FIRSTLORD....and saying we *all* need to examine our own motives

<Lucasta> I'd rather see it all in private message, Sumptuous, but that's *me*

<FIRSTLORD> *We* know what we mean but others don't see it that way.

<Arturo-> I bet if a pretty submissve flashes you a bit of virtual clevage... you let them off with a warning Kree

<Arturo-> lol

<Lucasta> *chuckle*

<Kree> I do after the first 10

Action: Lucasta flashes her pretty virtual cleavage

<Kree> but 15gph is the barf level LOL

<Sumptuous> well Lucasta that is why there are "discussion" channels and "social" channels too as well as "scening" channel so people can pick and choose


<Lucasta> exactly, Sumptuous...and why we pick and choose which channels we frequent

<Lucasta> I said when we began...

<Lucasta> But I simply ask that you take the spirit of what I am saying, not necessarily the examples I use, into account....

<Lucasta> meaning that we need to consider how what we do portrays ourselves...and, what motives do we have behind what we are doing

<Kree> Sump there is another consideration....if I had been on my laptop when you did the popup a few minutes ago it would have filled the whole screen

<FIRSTLORD> Good thougt hts Lu

<Sumptuous> FIRSTLORD i really dont care how others see it if they choose to see it as offensive and i didnt do anything others found offensive i certainly would not be intot the BDSM lifestyle LOL cause god knows many people find this offensive

<Kree> Sump if you sent the popup in a priv message would it mean less to him?

<Sumptuous> Kree you can put me on ignore if you find it that annoying on your laptop it is your choice to do so just as it is my choice to do what i do also

Action: Kree is summarily dismisse

<Lucasta> Sumptuous....please....I think you're grabbing on to one thing here...not the big picture

<Arturo-> Well.. to the gushers.. I say keep gushing.. to the analytical.. keep on anal'ing

<Lucasta> it's not offensive to most...tiring to some, maybe....but it's the idea that--ESPECIALLY for those lookin for a partner--

<Sumptuous> the thing i think we all forget sometimes is that we are talking about a form of KINK and expressing it as we wish.

<Lucasta> they need to sit back and think of what image is being it really who they are?

<Lucasta> and, is their motive a "true" one? or are they trying to convince themselves by convincing others.

<Lucasta> or more importantly, are they trying to do "one-up manship" My "dom is better than your dom"...."I'm a better sub than you are"

<Lucasta> do you see my point now, Sumptuous? The "gushing" is an example, not the content of the message

<Sumptuous> yes i do Lucasta i see your point but i think my point was differrent from Kree's he has left though i think

<sasha_> This is one of the few things I disagree with you on Lu personally I like all the drama the colors people have the kneelers the kissers the gushers all of them they create color passion not all the time but some times

<Lucasta> sasha, I'd like to say something to you personally, but would like to do it on channel (it's *good*)

<Lucasta> okay?

<shedevyl> Is this open discussion now?

<sasha_> Kree you are the biggest gushy cuddly Dom of all lol

<Sumptuous> yes shedevyl...:)))

Action: sasha_ laughs

Action: swansong^ waves to the room...later all...great discuss <s>

Action: Lucasta waits for sasha's answer (assuming she's lagged)

<shedevyl> Well, I don't serve drinks in some channels and almost never in others...but when I do...It's a HUGE honor to the Dom..hee hee

<Sumptuous> i agree i do on occation also server drinks and i do it as a reward to Dom's i respect

<Lucasta> shedevyl, that would tell me a lot about the person you are in real life, I think, if I were on those channels

<Sumptuous> like calling htem Sir it is also a sign of respect

<FIRSTLORD> Just for the record...I agree with Sumptuous and sasha that in the right place gushing and open displays of affection between ppl is great and I personally love it.

<Lucasta> I show common curtesy to people I do not know well...I treat them well. I show respect to those who have earned it

<Lucasta> I *personally* don't believe that someone who calls themselves dominant deserve my respect just 'caus they do

<Sumptuous> and if you think our gushing on line is pathedic LOL you should see us in private LOL we just love one another to NO END

<FIRSTLORD> But as in most things, there is another point of view.

<Sumptuous> me too Lucasta i suppo se my common curtesy goes a tad further?

<Lucasta> that's *very* likely, choose to show respect in a manner I do not

<Sumptuous> exactly Lucasta oooh agree with you very much!!! just causesomeone has a capital in thier nick doenst mean a thing to me

<Sumptuous> exactly Lucasta oooh agree with you very much!!! just cause someone has a capital in thier nick doenst mean a thing to me

<Lucasta> but, it would not make me happy to see/hear another call my dominant "Sir" because that is one of the titles I refer to him as...and he doesn't care for it either...which means you've put him in a position he does not want to be in

<Sumptuous> i am submissive by choice and i dont knwo that i am by nature....i am submissive to my Master because i want so very much to please him....but i can be just as DOmme also and i do switch and i enjoy switching also.

<Lucasta> *grin* Glad to hear a capitalized nick doesn't mean a thing to you.

<Arturo-> Just be yourself Sumptious..

<Arturo-> smiles

<Sumptuous> Lucasta LOL you konw me well enough i think to know that....i have a problem with postering subs trying to get attention through crossing the line of what is fun and what is just horrid behavior


<Sumptuous> Arturo i am *always* am Sir

<Lucasta> *chuckle* And see, Sumptuous? It's is all in the perception!

<Arturo-> i can see

<Arturo-> smiles

Action: Sumptuous *grinz* eheh yes it is

<Lucasta> sasha? Not sure if you saw my question earlier, but I'd like to say something personal (but good!) to you on channel...with your permission?

<Sumptuous> and that is why i cant really worry about what everyone else is thinking...but i do worry about the new subbies sometimes they need to realize that submissive is not weak and that Dominate is not do the new Dom's also at times...soem of them think just what you said "Submissive is Stupid" and nothing could be further from the true Lucasta..:)

<Lucasta> Sumptuous, your behavior not only reflects on you but sends signals to other concern is not the sub=weak issue as much as people fearing they are not submissive enough or dom enough...through watching the actions/words of others...I have seen you on channel, Sumpt...I think you provide a *great* example to others...

<Sumptuous> hmmm i get your point Lucasta

<Lucasta> but when a submissive sees someone bowing and scraping to anyone or everyone...their image is skewed..

<Lucasta> not to mention the image a new Dominant gets!

<Sumptuous> well i think the most imporant thing is to be open to learning and to respect boundaries

<Lucasta> there ya go

<slavetoy> bravo i agreee

<Sumptuous> yes we are in totally agreeance there for sure Lucasta...:)

<Lucasta> and you've NO idea how many submissives (some in this very room)...have come to me over the years fearing they weren't sub enough ...because they weren't like so-n-so.

<Lucasta> it's truly sad.

<sasha_> may i say one thing about all this posturing and gushing stuff?

Action: Lucasta wonders just what these folk were doing in that alternate #submission_discuss

<sasha_> I do not think we have a right to address peoples personalities I think the mix is good some people are analytical serious some bubble over some would kneel gently when they entered a room

<sasha_> some would dance in and hug everyone... some gush... some wonder if it is ok to talk...

<Sumptuous> i have always looked at it much differently LOL there a few Dom's, subbies online who can attest to this...i always made the poor Dom's answers about 100 questions before i would submit to them LOL in e-mail etc...but i have always had good partners

<Lucasta> Same here, Sumptuous--exceptional partners--for *me*

<sasha_> can i finish LU?

<sasha_> I think there is great danger in assuming because we feel act a certain way others shoulld also...

<Lucasta> sure, sasha, please!

<sasha_> I figure if Gor people want to spin that glass 100 times kiss the rim what ever they do if it pleases them wonderful.... To me it seems kinna silly but hey wanna drink paga go for it

<sasha_> as long as they are happy and kind and do not hurt anyone

<Lucasta> sasha, the point was not the examples...but the content--which was...

<Sumptuous> agree sasha as long as they dont hurt sane and consentual

<Lucasta> that we *all* need to examine our motives...and consider wheth er the image we present is a realistic one of who we are...especially those who are still searching.

<Lucasta> make sense?

<Sumptuous> well Lucasta i think staying power says something about people....i have been coming to the channel for a long time and after a while it is easy to see who is putting on a mask for eveyrone it is impossible to keep it would be so hard to put it on over a long period of time

<sasha_> yes lu

<Lucasta> in other words, someone like you--if you ever stopped "gushing"--I'd immediately assume that you and Arturo were having problems because that's very much who you are...

<Lucasta> but, I would like to say one thing....

<Lucasta> in your posts to lists, your tenor has changed no longer spend 50 words to express something wonderful Arturo has done...

<Lucasta> but!

<Lucasta> you *always* put something sweet about him at the bottom of your, *I* can read them, and learn from you--others could without you limiting your words--but I couldn't...

<Lucasta> for *me* I'm very glad your posts have changed a bit.

<Arturo_> I just prolly havent done anything wonderful lately Lu... smiling

<Lucasta> LOL!

<Sumptuous> the other thing about gushing persay is that we are in a words only medium and our words alone express whom we are...therefore it is important we use expressions verbally to explain our physcial self...even if it is just /me *waves*

<Lucasta> I doubt that, Arturo!

<shedevyl> Submit in email? hmmm..thats a new one to me.

<shedevyl> Have to try it.

<shedevyl> I may joke around and cut up in channel..but those who know me, know I can and will be very serious in a personal discussion.

<Lucasta> Sumptuous, I long as our motives and portrayals are honest

<StormMstr> I don't know about that Sumptuous, there are certainly people that create entire new personalities on IRC

<_sasha> shedevyl thank god for humour geeze in this lifestyle we examine our lives so closely thank god for laughing breaks......

<_sasha> Lucasta oh darn i missed what you said

<Lucasta> LOL!

<Lucasta> sasha, I'll cut and paste to you in /msg

<Arturo_> my poor sweet angel... so lagged

<Sumptuous> shedevyl oh you can Master and i have an on going story now we both are writting it over keeps us busy when we cant be together and it is romantic as hell...:)

<shedevyl> I come here to relax and enjoy in a light hearted atmosphere as well as serious discussions. There are different channels for each.

Action: Sumptuous *grinz* and hell is pretty romantic LOL

<_sasha> darn i have not been saying enough nice things about him? laughing no lucasta i agree it is called growth and balance

<Arturo_> btw... have i told you lately how much you make me gush

Action: _sasha looks at her Master and grins i can't tell Master cause i have no airsickness bags to pass out foe when i make em all sick with my sweetness

<Arturo_> literally!

<Arturo_> i adore you my princess

<Arturo_> insullin anyone?

Action: Sumptuous *grinz* and points at this channels rules LOL

<Lucasta> sasha, what you've just told me is that you have grown comfortable enough (not that you weren't before) to not have to gush about Arturo as much anymore...that tells me a LOT about where you're at now...where I didn't feel you were before...again *perspective* (in this case, mine)

<_sasha> Lu You are wrong

<_sasha> I have learned that a list is not the place

<_sasha> i save it for my diary

<Lucasta> *chuckle* sasha, this is *my* perception....I can not be wrong *grin*

<_sasha> I learned to post

<_sasha> i have only been on lists a short time

<Lucasta> no...not your posting, but what you just said to me on this channel

<_sasha> it is a learned skill

<_sasha> wrong this is not the place wanna see th private messages

<_sasha> grin

<Lucasta> you said: no lucasta i agree it is called growth and balance

<Lucasta> ach! No, I can't take any more of my oral hypoglycemic until tomorrow morning!

<Sumptuous> FIRSTLORD just pointed this out to me...Lucasta, but then when the *romance* is gone, when the gushing stops,when the glow of inner peace is accepted as the norm or not noticed at all....then, has the magic gone?

<FIRSTLORD> Lucasta, but then when the *romance* is gone, when the gushing stops, when the glow of inner peace is accepted as the norm or not noticed at all....then, has the magic gone?

<Lucasta> that's something *only* for those in the relationship to it my business?

<Lucasta> I gush to my Dom (as crazy as it makes me to admit this)...but not in the face of others...again, this is what *I* prefer.

<Lucasta> and what *he* prefers.

<Sumptuous> IMHO i think that if the glow of inner peace is gone you better want it back and be willing to work for it...or it will fade away just like anything in life you dont work at

<FIRSTLORD> Of course you are right....but the reason for the emotion is the strong feelings isn't it?

<_sasha> I think there is great danger Lu in looking at people from our head space

<_sasha> it is what often gets honest people in trouble they assume everyone is ect

<_sasha> Lu I will still stand it is all about learning ... these are all skills

<Lucasta> FIRSTLORD, have you not heard subs gush about a dominant they've known for all of 24 hours?

<_sasha> i venture to say there are some people here who have so much to say but do not know how

<Lucasta> *smile* can't argue with you there, sasha

<Lucasta> nor with that statement, sasha

<rabbit-> i think thats a real problem....instant collars....

<FIRSTLORD> > In all honesty , no Lucasta...but I guess it happens and that is your point.

<Feline^> yah, collar of the week/hour

<Lucasta> which, to *me* rabbit, signals "settling"

<Sumptuous> Lucasta yea but there is a difference between a sub of the week Dom and a serious relationship even if it is just online.....just like a one night stand in RL is different then an on going love afair

<Sumptuous> rabbit me too very big problem!

<Lucasta> fully agreed, Sumptuous...which is why my point is: examine your motives *and* realize the image you portray--if both are *honest* then act as you will.

<Sumptuous> Lucasta to me it signifies thoughtlessness

<rabbit-> it should be possible to "play" in a top/bottom siutation without pulling in the symbol of ownership

<rabbit-> how can someone collar a stranger?

<_sasha> Lucasta so many people are lonely they want to be loved they are in love with love and it is a shame i have a very good friend like that here but she is ill and suicidal there are deeply troubled people here I am just glad they can find rest from their

<Lucasta> got me, rabbit

<_sasha> lonliness

<rabbit-> or worse.....submit to a total stranger?

<Sumptuous> yes exactly rabbit!

<Lucasta> is that not an example of low self-esteem, sasha?

<Lucasta> this person is "settling" for less than she deserves

<Sumptuous> i think it is an example of low self esteem Lucasta

<Sumptuous> rabbit i think many hard lessons are learned that way also

<_sasha> Oh yes Lucasta suicidal is a real good hint of low self esteme everytime ...

Action: shedevyl oftens fantasizes about submitting to a total stranger

<Lucasta> even without the suicidal tendencies, sasha...the rest of the "symptoms" you describe are rampant throughout our community

<shedevyl> Just for a night.

<rabbit-> well...i also think there is a difference between people who have rl experience there too...if a person is JUST doesnt have the same signifigance

<Lucasta> *grin* I'm with you there, shedevyl....but that is a conscious, choice (I think it "rational" *wink*)

<Sumptuous> it is why you have sub's and even Dom's coming into open channel and crying about something that has no business being in open channel....IF you are collared to someone you should know that your actions directly effect that person and directly reflect that person you are collared is like a marriage and should not be taken lightly.

<shedevyl> oh..whew

<Lucasta> ah rabbit, there I would disagree with you...

<Sumptuous> rabbit do you really think so??

<Arturo_> we often play out fantasies like that together shedev

&l t;Lucasta> are there not real people with real emotions behind these screens?

<rabbit-> of course there are....i was speaking in terms of the quick collar....

<shedevyl> Hey!! Great idea!! Where's my notepad?

<Arturo_> In fact.. I think I have a story for sasha a little later

<Arturo_> grins

<rabbit-> no one in rl would do that if they have any experience at all

<Sumptuous> shedevyl that is fine as long as you know the difference between a one nighter and an a life long relationship...and dont expcet anymore

<_sasha> lol starts singing stranger in the night oh give me a fright

<Lucasta> *grin*

<Arturo_> doobie doobie dooo

<Lucasta> rabbit, you've probably not met the same real lifers I have...

<shedevyl> Oh...He'll be in love by the morning.

Action: shedevyl buffs her nails on her collar.

<Lucasta> instant collars are no less common in the "real" world than they are heer

<Lucasta> here, even

<Lucasta> uh, not to contradict you Arturo, but that's scobby dooby do

<Lucasta> *grin*

<rabbit-> i have worn a collar in rl for almost 19 years....different collars yes....but i rarely see anyone accept a collar from someone they just met in a club

Action: MindFul1 sneaks in disguised, looking to capture shedevyl ;)

<Sumptuous> shedevyl i dont think that is uncommon i mean how many people in this channel havent had or known someone who had a one night vanilla love affair that was amazing....could it be much different in bdsm? the consiquences are different but it is still sex...just more interesting and more dareing

<rabbit-> play...yes....collar...i dont think so

<Lucasta> oh my, rabbit--you *definitely* know different people than I do!

<Arturo_> Its doobie doobie... ( Strangers in the night song )

<Arturo_> lol

<Lucasta> Arturo, I was kidding! Just a cartoon joke *laugh*

<CatsKitN> instant collars scared the shit outta me when i first started comin to D/s channels

<Lucasta> they still scare the shit out of me, CatsKitN...too many people hurt

<shedevyl> I wouldn't DO it...not really...I might get cyber cooties.

Action: shedevyl checks Mindful1 for cooties

Action: _sasha looks at her Master just agree Lu or he will send you the record lol

<Lucasta> too many people desperate to find love or a place to submit or dom

Action: rabbit- gives shedevyl a cyber cootie shot in the arm

<Lucasta> LOL! I've got it *blush*

<shedevyl> I better go...I feel a silly attack coming on.

<Lucasta> <--big Sinatra fan

<Sumptuous> some attractions are purely physical and as cold as it may seem i have had these kinds of relationships in rl, but i didnt wake up married...infact i didnt even stay till sun up

Action: Arturo_ swats sasha

<shedevyl> bye all :))

Action: MindFul1 checking frantically for cyber cooties, scratches his leg

Action: _sasha grins Master is that posturing looks at Lu hey can he do that?

<Lucasta> Sumptuous, for *me*, playing with friends to learn when I was not with a partner was just worked very well for me...though don't know if it would work for all

<shedevyl> I couldn't stay away!

Action: _sasha sits on shedevyl... and grins

Action: Arturo_ swats sasha again

<Lucasta> *grin* Sure could, not my channel, sasha *wink*

<Lucasta> and some of those were one (well usually 2 or more night) stands

<_sasha> Lucasta serious question

<Lucasta> yes?

Action: Sumptuous *grinz*

<Sumptuous> LOL

<Arturo_> git bak here shedev

<_sasha> What can we do as submissives to help people who are suffering

<_sasha> who are looking to BDSM to fix them

<Sumptuous> suffering from what sasha?

<shy{PA}> be there when they need someone to talk to....

<_sasha> how can we support our sisters so they do not get hurt

<Lucasta> be their friend....take the person *you* are and tell them straight what *you* know...and, unfortunately, let them make their own mistakes...then be there after to support them in their next decisions

<Lucasta> I am a very straightforward, no holes barred, kinda gal....and so that is how I talk with others....

<Lucasta> you might do thins differently...but the important thing is is to let them know there *is* a different way...and hope they come to find it

<Sumptuous> Lucasta you are like me that way ...dont ask if you dont REALLY want to knwo what i think

<_sasha> Sumptuous well for example my Master has recommended to several submissives that are friends and looking for a Dom to fix their life that they should fix their life then submit

<Lucasta> I would love to know what you think, Sumptuous!

<_sasha> submission is a gift not giving in not giving up your power

<Lucasta> that returns to what we talked about earlier...

<Lucasta> if you are not in control of yourself, how can you relinquish control?

<_sasha> Sumtuous not one listened

<Lucasta> sasha, unfortunately, that is *their* choice...

<Lucasta> you can only (through words and example) let them know there is another way.

<Lucasta> and hope they come to find it.

Action: _sasha looks at her master he tells me to let it go i want to DO something fix it

<Sumptuous> ooh i believe you have to be healthy in body and mind before you can give anything to anyone. You can only offer support to people can cant control anyone but yourself when it comes right down to it

<Sumptuous> sasha people have ot make their own mistakes.....they really do

<Arturo_> well.. there is a point when a help turns into a hurt

<Sumptuous> you can only use the "feel, felt, found" system

<Sumptuous> like this...i understand how you feel and empathies with your feelings they are valid and your thoughts.....i felt the same way at one point in my life....and i found that by doing this i over came those problems

<Sumptuous> it is an effective technique and works wonders....people want to draw on your expireence and then make their own choices you can only offer advice and hope someone takes it....

Action: contused agrees with alot of this but doesn't not with this: 'i believe you have to be healthy in body and mind before you can give anything to anyone'

<Sumptuous> if you offer it from the heart and with love they may...but they may make mistakes also as a friend you can just be there for them and offer support when the shit hits the fan so to speak...because it always does

<Lucasta> Sumptuous, that is my only hope with these discussions I do..

<Sumptuous> contused please tell us why?

<Lucasta> I would agree that healthy in body is not a requirement

<contused> not being healthy in either, I am still able to be supportive of others in some cases. if you believe that I am not able to do that either, you take the last thing left i have to offer.

<shy{PA}> but it helps

<Sumptuous> if someone is ill and they cant take care of themselves they cant take care of someone else

<Lucasta> so, if a submissive has MS they cannot serve a dominant or take care of another's emotional needs?

<Sumptuous> contused i am going to give you an example of what i mean....

<_sasha> Sumptuous does one have to take care of the other or just have a relationship?

<contused> and since I still receive email from people telling me that having someone to talk to who listened and shared their experiences with them helped them to accept themselves, i still believe i have something to offer.

<rabbit-> i dunno Sumpt.....i have a terminal illness and yet i can still serve...and give the rest of my life the submissive fulfillment i need

<Lucasta> I have known contused for a very long time...she has an incredible amount to offer me nearly every time we talk...and she is not problem-free herself

<contused> if not in a relationship. i chose not to do that sort of thing, since i am in a certain position.

<Sumptuous> perhaps my context is being taken too litterally i am sorry if i offened anyone and i shall rephrase my comment

<contused> but that does not make me incapable of thought and support.

Action: Lucasta smiles at Sumptuous....ain't words a b*tch, sometimes?

<contused> and i know a Dom who is loving and caring and who is a quad. is he not to be that?

Action: Sumptuous *winks* to Lucasta

<rabbit-> i think most of a D/s relationship is mental...the physical enactment of our ideal thoughts is only a part of it

Action: Arturo_ leans his head on sasha's shoulder.. smiling

<Lucasta> I'm still kicking myself for not making the first part of my script gender-neutral *sigh*

<_sasha> contused I heard a submissive tell a story she was emailing to a dome for a long time they agreed just to base their relationship on their words till they were ready to meet when she went to meet him he said he had been in a wheelchair for years but the

<Sumptuous> well i think if i was bedridden or if i was an emotional basket case it would be hard for me to give my everything to someone else i would have to heal myself anything in life

<_sasha> thing that amazed me she said he was the best lover she ever had

<contused> that is a different sort of statement, then, Sumptuous.

<Sumptuous> if i am not happy or forfilled along how can i offer this to someone else

<Lucasta> if you are talking of a D/s relationship, Sumptuous, I agree....I feel that a submissive must have control in order to relinquish it....

<contused> I choose not to get involved with anyone because of my situation. But that situation does not make me incapable of support in other ways or of giving in other ways.

<Lucasta> but one who is partially in control can relinquish it in part while she regains the rest

<contused> yes, I agree with that.

<_sasha> Sumptuous I did not walk for almost 6 months and then it took another year and a half to be out of horrible pain I had a silly accident fell in a hole do you know that was the most productive time i think i have ever had?

<Sumptuous> everyone is once in a while but if it was an on going thing

<_sasha> I just can not agree our mind is our greatest gift

<Sumptuou> okay sasha......when this time was yours were you on irc or were you serving in RL

<_sasha> real life

<_sasha> i not only did that

<Sumptuou> cause i am guessing you were not able to do many of the tasks you would have liked too?

<_sasha> i joined a non profit charity and did so much good work

<Lucasta> my mind is, is the best part of the greatest gift I could give is to share parts of it, and keep the rest sharp to best serve my dominant

<Sumptuou> perhaps emotionally yes you could but physically you could not

<_sasha> I did different things

<_sasha> Supt I did other things i could never sit still long enough to do now

<shedevyl> My heart is my best quality.

Action: Sumptuou *smiles* good for you natashia...okay i am going to give my personal example

<Arturo_> Im insatiable.. i want all of her

<Arturo_> most of all i want her light..

<Sumptuou> but i am going to end the discussion now and long log anymore on the bot

<Arturo_> and her sweet spirit

<_sasha> awwww she grin me to cause my mind goes on the blitz once in a while smile my heart never does grin

<Sumptuou> if this is alright with everyone?

<Lucasta> shedevyl, you point out the main difference between people...some act with their minds (me), some act with their hearts...I'm now trying to find a better balance

Action: Sumptuou would like to thank everyone for coming tonight and sharing in our topic, a special thanks to our speaker Lucasta and everyone who has helped make tonight so memorable. Next weeks guest speaker is lilhelfyr her topic is on "Sub-Space and Flying", we hope to see you here again very soon...:) You are free to stay and visit further if you wish, but officially the discussion is now over.

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