Priveledge vs Responsibility

Priveledge vs. Responsibility
Speaker: Hawkwood
July 20, 1997

<Hawkwood> Wanna thank y'all for coming. I am known to most of you. I have been a regular on #submission for more than a year. One thing that will get me on a soapbox quicker than most is the common attempt to separate privilege from responsibility. The two must ALWAYS go together in any practical system. Separate them and the result is inevitably disastrous. There are too many people who eagerly seek privilege, but refuse to accept the responsibilities that come with it. This is especially important in a D/s relationship. A Dom/me receives tremendous privileges from a sub. It follows that the responsibility is similarly heavy. The Dom/me who ignores this responsibility will invariably be involved in increasingly unhappy relationships, and will leave a trail of bitter breakups behind.So... What are the special responsibilities of a Dom/me?

In my opinion, the most important is to take responsibility for the happiness of the sub. I don't believe that is a contradiction. Subs do not enter D/s relationships to be injured, physically or mentally. They enter them for the same reason Dom/mes do: Pleasure. A Dom/me has the privilege of insisting on receiving pleasure. It follows that He or She MUST provide a comparable pleasure to the sub. This is not "topping from the bottom," but a simple fair exchange. Nor need it be difficult to do. Often a sub takes pleasure in the same things a Dom/me does. The Dom/me who believes that a sub exists for His or Her pleasure and is entitled to nothing in return is ni kultyoorny.

A corollary of the first responsibility is the requirement that a Dom/me learn enough about a sub to know what he or she wants in return for his or her submission. A Dom/me should never accept a sub about whom He or She knows little. It's the things you DON'T know that will ruin the relationship. A Dom/me has a responsibility to be fair. Giving a sub grief without cause or unfairly will invariably ruin the relationship.... If a Dom/me wishes to "discipline" a sub for His or Her own pleasure, be honest about it. Don't pretend it is a "punishment" for a sin the sub did not actually commit. Likewise. a sub who wishes to be disciplined should say so, rather than feigning "naughty" behavior in order to be "punished. A Dom/me has a responsibility to be loyal. A couple may, of course, negotiate any degree of "openness" they like in their relationship, BUT ... the Dom/me who ASSUMES that privilege without discussion will find His or Her relationship increasingly unhappy.

<Hawkwood> Loyalty also means support. The Dom/me who badmouths

His or Her sub in the sub's absence is ni kultyoorny. Keep criticism private and approval public. A Dom/me has a responsibility to be HERE! If He or She expects the sub to be on channel at a particular time, ... the sub is entitled to expect the same, or a reasonable explanation. Things happen to keep both parties away, but ... A Dom/me must never just ignore the responsibility to appear. At the least, He or She owes the sub an explanation for the absence.A Dom/me must recognize that a sub is still a human being. There will be times when he or she will "have a headache." Be supportive, not angry. Insisting on performance when the sub is ill, or stressed or merely distracted by RL will dissatisfy both parties.

<Hawkwood> Dom/mes and subs share some responsibilities: both have a responsibility to be honest. Lieing will ruin a relationship as quickly as anything. Both Dom/mes and subs have a responsibility to trust and to be trustworthy. If you can't trust each other, you will not be happy with each other. So... What are the special responsibilities of a sub?There is only one: to do what he or she agreed to do. Submission means the loss of privilege and with it the loss of responsibility. As the Dom/me claims all the privileges in the relationship, so does He or She bear all the responsibilitiesas well. I have seen too many bitter and angry broken relationships that did not need to be so. Ethics is often a lost art, but one absolutely critical to D/s.

<Hawkwood3> I will entertain questions or comments.

<MindFul1> any protocols for questions and comments?

<Hawkwood3> Nah, have at it. Just don't interrupt each other. Any questions?

<Artful-> regarding: Submission means the loss of privilege and with it the loss of responsibility. i cant say that i agree with that A submissive has a responisbility to herself,... to the relationship.. just as the dominant does

<Hawkwood3> Responsibility and authority go together. You cannot make a sub responsible for things she has no control over... A sub DOES have a responsibility to do what he or she said she would, the rest is up to the Dom/me.

<Artful-> she has control over many things.. she's not a limp ragdoll....

* natasha` smiles I agree Master a responsibility for her safety is of upmost importance for one

<MindFul1> I completely disagree with your basic premise of what being a dom is, and what is required in pleasing a sub. I know what it is that I want, what is important to me, how I will take her, own her. Before we get together, she must know those things about me. After we're together, I will decide on pleasure and punishment. Anything other than that is a betrayal of myself and of her. But if you're talking about IRC only, then nevermind. are you talking real life or irc only?

<Hawkwood3> I speak only for myself, of course, but I feel that any relationship must work for both, or it works for neither.

<`sherilee> it's an exchange....the submissive gives up her responsibility, but only after knowing there is full trust in the Dom

* janice- thinks trust is the #1 important ingredient.. doubts anyone feels otherwise

<`Nick`> I agree with that, Hawkwood... both sides have to have needs met in order for it to work... that takes communication...

<Hawkwood3> Absolutely! If there is no trust, the relationship will not work.

<MindFul1> of course trust must be present before anything of value is available, sherilee. and with the trust, true intimacy becomes available.

* XTREMEDOM speak quietly, " It seems to me that "responsibility

", "privilege", "pleasure" must all come about thru "Communication", only then will "trust" come about, if communication is weak, then the relationship will be weak

<natasha`> Mindful do you not think as relationships grow trust deepens as you delve deeper more and more control is given up but it is an ongoing process

<Hawkwood3> Communication is the first necessity. Everything follows from that.

<natasha`> you can not just decide that you have reached the cresendo because there is always a step beyond

<MindFul1> of course it grows, natasha. It has to. If it doesn't I think it will wither. I don't know of such a thing as a 'static' relationship.

<janice-> i disagree to some extent natasha.. if there were not trust to begin with, the cuffs would never go on. and the games would never begin. the trust can grow and mature from there, but it needs to be there from the start

<natasha`> how can a submissive give up responsibility ...when she has to dig deeper unfold and keep growing in her submission if she did that she would be a robot

* janice- can imagine talking with a dom "make me trust you".... it is over before it starts

<natasha`> jaanice there is a differnce in levels of trust

<janice-> absolutely natasha

<natasha`> the deeper you go the harder the issues are... cuffs scening is one level

<Artful-> trust is a feeling.. as all feelings based on perceptions of reality.. if a one does something to alter the perception.. the feeling can dissapate.. or leave entirely

<natasha`> but exposing your soul is a different story

<sassysub> and naturally the relationship grows...i do think the sub still has a responsibility to her dom to make him/her aware of what she likes as does he/she

<Artful-> a couple has to trust one another to be human..

<Hawkwood3> It is much like a work situation. the boss cannot say "I will make the decisions, but you are responsible for the results."

<sassysub> Hawkwood,,,could you elaborate on what responsibilities you feel a sub has to a dom/me?

<Artful-> i could never live up to some false sense of infalibity.. its easy for a submissive to percieve her Master in such a way...

<Hawkwood3> sassy, when a couple negotiate a relationship, the sub makes certain agreements about what he or she will do ...

<Artful-> and its easy for a ego to go along with such a perception

<Hawkwood3> The sub has a responsibility to live up to that agreement... But when he or she surrenders control to a Dom/me, she should surrender responsibility as well.

<Artful-> What about situations not covered by an agreement Harkwood

<janice-> i do have a question Hawkwood.. what about those of us who are not 24/7... where does responsibility start/stop? when the proverbial collar goes off and on?

<nflauren> Hawkwood: Beyond that, I think also there is almost always an unspoken agreement that the sub has to be responsible for his or her own life if the relationship itself fails---even if you don't ever want to explicitly think about that.

<Hawkwood3> Obviously, anything new must be negotiated.

<nflauren> janice: It starts and stops with whatever you negotiate.

<Hawkwood3> janice, that is a very difficult thing to deal with. Part-time relationships must be very carefully explored or they will cause grief.

<Hawkwood3> nflauren, that is right. Never stop communicating.

<sassysub> which brings it back to communication being the key to keeping a relationship healthyand i agree w/Artful....you first have to be honest w/YOURSELF before you can expect a healthy/happy relationship

<nflauren> Hawkwood: Well, I think like janice suggests---Your mileage may vary. Everyone is different, and what works for some doesn't work for others. I know lots of great relationships that are not full time.

<natasha^> whether you are apart or together it is just there to be called up at anytime

<nflauren> natasha: Yes; and some people do really well maintaining that sense in themselves, even when they are working or taking care of kids or telling a salesman

<nflauren> Hawkwood: Yep. And also: tailoring. There is just no standard---you have to work it out as individuals , piece by piece.

<Hawkwood3> I agree. No two people are alike.

<nflauren> I'm curious what peole here think about the dom and sub's various responsibilities are when it comes to ending a relationship. I have in mind situations where the dom and sub contracted in good faith, but one partner or the other in the duration finds a partner elsewhee who is a lifetime partner or has the potential of that. What do you do in cases like that?

<MindFul1> I feel that keeping communications open is a special responsibility of the dom. I've written of a daily ritual I employ. She sits facing me on my lap, must say what is on her mind, concerns, joys, etc, with no hold back, & with no disrespect. We agree she will be punished if she withholds.

<ilira> good question nflauren

<sassysub> MindFul1...how do you know if she withholds?

<MindFul1> doms can always tell! :) Seriously, if the relationship is intimate, it is readily apparent if there is a hold back, or it will be apparent shortly.

<Hawkwood3> nflauren, it is always difficult to break up like that, but the partner leaving bears the responsibility for making it as painless as possible.

<MindFul1> any hold backs will inevitably impact the relationship negatively, and that will become readily apparent. I think I must act to clear those up immediately.

<nflauren> Hawkwood: But do you not also think that the other partner has a responsibility to be understanding?

<rubia> it's hard to be understanding if your heart is broken

<nflauren> MindFull: Yes, I completely agree with that.

<Hawkwood3> nflauren, yes, but the leaving partner is taking control of the relationship, hence the responsibility as well.

<Artful-> it can be hard leaving someone whether you love them or not

<nflauren> Hawkwood: I guess I think what really matters is that part of the initial responsibility o_both_ parties in building a BDSM relationship is being clear about whether it is "in love" meaning planning on a lifetime together, or "love"

<Artful-> paul simon makes it sound easy but it aint!!

<Hawkwood3> nflauren, OK, I can buy that. We're back to communication again.

<TheKttN> is there an area between play and lifetime in D/s? seems to me there is not much of a grey area. seems we seek one or the other. does the responsibility come up front so both can share in the responibility of a break up?

<sassysub> just because you love someone does not mean that you are compatible

<ilira> sometimes men whom i love are not men who bring me joy and well being

<Artful-> ofcourse.. but its often not even physically easy

<nflauren> sassysub: Right.

<ilira> i have worked with battered women who would not leave or press charges because she loved her abuser

<janice-> doesn't mean staying is right ilira, but the love ITSELF is not wrong...

<ilira> yes .. physical abuse is obvious and unarguable

<aleasha> i agree Mindful1...just seeing leaving as too easy nowadays

<ilira> but there is emotional and mental

<ilira> and much more subtle abuse of a woman

<natasha^> ilira that is an unhealthy relationship quite different from a responsible one that almost goes without saying... abuse is out

<nflauren> aleasha: Well, not everyone lives with the person they are in love with; and not every relationship pans out to permanent lifetime involvement. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with abuse. Which doesn't mean abuse doesn't happen,

<nflauren> aleasha: Well, most peole I know go into an awful lot of relationships in their lives intending committed LTR, only to find in a year or two that it wasn't that way. Sometimes honorably so.

<janice-> love doesn't mean it is the right place to be always

* flower^ wonders why there is such a high instance of D/s relationships not lasting long term

<Hawkwood3> flower, I suspect many relationships are entered when one or both parties don't really want them to be long time.

<nflauren> flower: Hmmm. Actually, most relationships, vanilla and otherwise, do not last long. In my experience, the d/s relationships of caring people last as long as the vanilla relationships do. But maturity and being realistic matter in both cases.

<ilira> long time is different to different people

<Hawkwood3> One night stands happen too.

<aleasha> shocked look Hawkwood...REALLY???

<Hawkwood3> LOL

<flower^> i was thinking it might be due to the fact that some people are always looking for bigger and bigger highs.....and then just burn out...

<nflauren> flower: I know lots and lots of folks who have been in 20-year d/s relationships. *chuckle* And 5-year ones. And 10-year ones. And others that don't last a month. :)

<MindFul1> I think too many are unwilling to ask the hard questions, or answer them, up front.

<natasha^> sometimes life deals blows that one partner can not overcome

<nflauren> natasha: Yep.

<janice-> ilira: i call that "leading with the heart"... it's dangerous, and very rewarding

<Hawkwood3> flower, if they work at it, the highs keep getting better in long term relationships. :)

<natasha^> but it usually has to do with a communication break

<aleasha> Mindful1..it's easier to get caught up in the passion

<natasha^> that is why Mindfuls quiet time chats are so important

<TheKttN> that's it Mindful1, talk, talk, talk and talk.

<flower^> Hawkwood, Sir.....i was speaking more in terms of stretching limits.....but actually....in my own case....RstyTool and i have no limits...

<sassysub> which is why i honestly think 2 ppl should talk talk talk talk before ever deciding on a more permanent relatioinship

<nflauren> flower: What is true though is that all the folks I know in long term d/s relationships have grown and changed and been flexible with each other. If you are imagining that every minute of every day will be the peak of intensity, you set yourself up for failing.

<Hawkwood3> flower, limits are different. A couple can learn to make the same things more exciting if they work at it.

<shyone{H}> and then keep on talking all thru the relationship....ongoing communication is vital

<natasha^> and................. sometimes the times are rough if the communication and commitment is strong sometimes you just have to ride out the storm

<aleasha> Mindful1...me too..in my school of hard knocks..right over the head where i need them! <grin>

<Hawkwood3> shyone, yup. :)

<aleasha> mindful1...we won't talk about where those *values* originate from...<grin

<natasha^> One of the things i think makes D/s have a greater potential to survive if the pricipals are followed with a pure heart and thats a big if is the roles are defined

<MindFul1> nflauren, your comments about long term relationships are well taken. the basic elements of success are the same for any relationship, d/s or not.

<natasha^> I belong to Artful no if's ands or buts and thats that so I know what is expected of me and he does as well no power struggle

<nflauren> MindFull: Yes, I think it is really the same when it comes to relationship issues, no matter what the details.

<Hawkwood3> Mindful1, that is absolutely true. All relationships have the same elements and pitfalls.

<TheKttN> but in D/s hopefully there are clearly established roles and boundaries right from the first talk...things always change but in that way the D/s relationship is stronger.

<nflauren> I also think that a big pitfall of new d/s relationships is not understanding that some things are relationship issues that transcend the d/s. You can soemtimes handle these things within the structure of the d/s; but sometimes you need a time out from the d/s, stepping back and re-evaluating.

<natasha^> it is called being human

<nflauren> natasha: That's certainly one term for it. :)

<natasha^> but the underlying energy is always there

<aleasha> nflauren..i guess my RL experiences have just been different..but i have approached Ds relationships from a position of strength..so that may be the difference in communication

<natasha^> MindFul1 it helps in many areas like hidden anger...guilt ... showing your dark side ...often in vanilla you feel shy to say i love to serve you I like kinky sex ectoften that is not something a vanilla partner would answer

<aleasha> not Ds, just a better caliber of people!

<Hawkwood3> Vanillas do not understand the concept. They consider all D/s events wrong and bad.

* natasha^ has one rule always find a Master that is more perverted than you grin

<MindFul1> what concept, Hawkwood?

<Hawkwood3> Mindful, the concept of BDSM, D/s. etc.

<nflauren> Hawkwood: Well, that's not true of all vanillas. *chuckle*

<MindFul1> I don't think that's true, Hawkwood. Many understand it, and know it's not for them.

<natasha^> to BDSM he wanted me to go to a therapist

<nflauren> aleasha: I like your description of coming to d/s from a position of strength; and I wonder if you have not put your finger on why it is that BDSM folks often view vanillas as so simplistic.

<Haw kwood3> Mindful, I have met only a few who were open minded enough to even talk about it.

<natasha^> called me three times

<sassysub> ah...i think many understand and WON'T ADMIT they are interested....and many do not understand at all

<MindFul1> if anyone is open enough, for example, to accept that being gay or lesbian is healthy, then they also likely to accept bdsm. At least that's so in my experience.

<natasha^> I feel that coming from weakness it is more like giving in giving up and i know my master agrees

<nflauren> MindFull: Yes, that is my experience, also. And actually, even amongst my colleagues who have no experience with gays or lesbians or BDSM folks, I generally find that people are openly interested and open-minded.

<MindFul1> you're right, ariel, it seems to be the "in" thing in clubs and fashion, for example

<nflauren> aleasha: Oh, I didn't imply that you did. I was just commenting on your having put your finger on something. I think the fact that for a lot of BDSM folks, finding the real life possibility of _doing_ BDSM gives them strenth.

<ariel^> hello Reveur :-)

<natasha^> the devotion the symbiosity the dance

<sassysub> i think a lot of understanding or even misunderstanding depends upon where you live....different regions are more susceptable to different ideas

<MindFul1> and you're right, ariel, acceptance does not necessarily equate to understanding

<nflauren> natasha: Um, BDSM has as its two middle letters DS, which was intentional. D/s is definitionally one aspect of BDSM.

<nflauren> natasha: If you want to draw a distinction, it might be between SM and d/s, with SM representing the physical expressions (which would include sex!) and d/s the purely emotional/psychological ones. That's pretty extreme as a division, but it works ok for theory discussions.

<MindFul1> nflauren, now I get your point also. Coming to D/s requires, I think, a high level of self-awareness, which in my view, is one aspect of strength.

<nflauren> MindFull: Yes; but I want to go a step further and suggest that folks who are interested in BDSM often are hiding it and scared of it for so long that when they get the chance to really speak up, they do rightfuly feel strong---and in vanilla relationships they may truly not have felt that same strength of self and confidence of self.

<natasha^> nflauren I do not draw a line there but I think many think that BDSM is about whips and chains and have no idea of the daily commitment when out of scene

<Hawkwood3> Bye all. Thanks for listening.

<nflauren> natasha: I see a lot of folks who have that view. I guess when I had not discovered BDSM I was scared it would be tacky, not for me.... It took seeing it in reality to realize it was what people were claiming.

<natasha^> I think BDSm has become a fad

<rabbit-> over the past 19 years i have seen bdsm go from a thing people kept will hidden to a social fad...sadly alot of people into it now are doing it for the fad...not the lifestyle

<nflauren> rabbit: Well, I don't have a problem with peole not doing it as a lifestyle---I don't do it as a"lifestyle." My life is my work, my family, other things. And then BDSM.... But I agree there is an awful lot of misconception occasion

<nflauren> occasioned by the sudden popularity.

* natasha^ smiles interesting first in my life comes Artful my children everything comes after ... i never considered where D/s fit in...

<nflauren> Well, I have another question about responsibility, since there is a lull. What is the tops' responsibility if the bottom is emotionally damaged by some aspect of play?

<flower^> Oooooo excellent question, nflauren!

<nflauren> <---asks hard questions. :)

<nflauren> flower: *laugh* AS if there is an answer?! :)

<flower^> there is indeed, nflauren! :)

* rabbit- smiles...hey nflauren

<natasha^> nflauren to protect the bottom with a pure heart and help them over come the fear , or accept it as the circumstance dictates

<nflauren> flower: Really? I have not seen one. But what is your answer?

<flower^> it's quite long and i can only speak from personal experience

<nflauren> natasha: What happens if the bottom demands more help than could possibly have been envisioned by _either_ partner in advance?

<flower^> i was physically and emotionally injured from a Dom before my present Master... He has nurtured me, regarding that incident and has told me if i feel guilty for ending the other relationship, He will punishe me for the guilt....that has helped tremendously!

<natasha^> nflauren well a Dominant can be an instrument in healing but ultimately we must all heal ourselves

<nflauren> flower: That is a wonderful experience you have described, and you are very lucky for it.

<flower^> yes, i am aware of that! :)

<flower^> i must leave now....Artful, Sir, thank You for your contribution......and thank you as well, nflauren.....bye everyone :)

<nflauren> Bye flower.