IRC to RL Love Affairs
Speakers: MstrDavid, alexus, roseAZ
February, 1997

<MstrDavid> if I could have everyone's attention the channel will be moderated (+M) for the initial part of our discussion, any questions should be directed to alyna and kira via a /msg

<MstrDavid> anything typed directly to channel will not be seen by anyone else so please /msg your questions to alyna and kira

<MstrDavid> THANKS!!!!

Sumptuous is happy to announce that tonight's speakers are "rozeAZ" and "alexus", with her Master "MstrDavid". They will be speaking in that order about their "IRC to RL BDSM Love Affairs".

Sumptuous gives a warm welcome to roseAZ , again thank-you for offering to share with us this evening. If you are ready please begin...:)

<roseAZ> Hi HI all, let me introduce myself, im roseAZ most of you know me or have seen me around im on a bunch of channels and this is a bit of my story .I began my journey in to the world and lifstyle of BDSM through Prodigy, cyber only for a year and a half till i found IRC.

<roseAZ> I met my Master, MasterAZ here in the very first week i was on IRC. ( Sept of 1995) and was collared by him by that Nov 12. When we met it was different from the start, he was not interested in a cyber only relationship and i was looking for a Master that wanted a full time commited submisive.

<roseAZ> We had several obsticals to overcome. The first one was huge.

<roseAZ> I was married, and althought ready for a divorce i had not seperated from my husband till i was cyber collard by Master... and then i moved out and began what i call the detangelment process. The process of closing doors on things of my former life and preparing for my new life as MasterAZ's fulltime, 24/7, slave. It was in this time, i remember watching an old Al Pacino movie and the the man and woman had to really struggle, i remember Al saying "The Dream doesnt get any closer then this,, we have to run for it!" then i knew that it was going to be worth all the struggels , because this was a dream worth running after. :)

<roseAZ> Some people may see cyber as not *real* but i belive the true ground work for our relationship was worked out here on IRC. It was here in cyber i began to know what submission feels like. We explore each others thought and values. This was the begining of my training,and it continues to this day.

<roseAZ> After three months of total commitment in cyber and on the telephone I was sure, totally positive that this was what i wanted. Master wanted me, and i wanted him.

<roseAZ> Althought some people at this point in my story would say i took a big gambel. But i do not feel as if i did. I didnt want to one day be sitting in a rocking chair looking back on my life and wished i had the courage to do what i needed to do to be happy. I packed my car to the very hilt, and drove from Washington State to Phoenix Arizona. There is even some veteran IRC.ers that can rember this time (rose nods to MasterCL and smiles) Some of you got daily reports of my journey across the country.

<roseAZ> Now MasterAZ had thought long and hard over how our *First* meeting should go.

<roseAZ> He desided that he wanted a slow transition from cyber to real..so he worked out a plan.

<roseAZ> And when i arrived in town he had me knock on his door, and turn around, and he opened the door, then slipped a blindfold over my head and he lead me into his apt. Then i slipped out of my clothes and he inspected his newly arrived property. After my inspection he handed me a long stem rose, and whispered in my ear that now "i was his forever".

<roseAZ> That voice that i had fallen in love with now had a body and hands that caressed me. And at long last, as i knelt before him, those hands sliped a simple leather collar around my neck and i became what i am now .... MasterAZ's slave.

<roseAZ> And althought this is point that i shall end my story its very clear its really the begining of the best story i can tell.. MasterAZ and i can can be found on a variaty of channels here on IRC we are active in our realtime BDSM club A.P.E.X. and althought MasterAZ only speaks in private and only rarly on open channel he welcomes your message as do i.

<roseAZ> We are a monagmus D/s couple and only *play* with each other. That is in real time and in cyber. We still use IRC as our suport group for our chosen lifstyle and have many friends here.

<roseAZ> rose pauses.... <flashes a smile> then turns to leave the speakers box.

Sumptuou would like to once again thank roseAZ for presenting your topic this evening, if you are now ready "^kira" and "alyna`" would like to ask you some of the questions they have collected while you were speaking.

<Sumptuou> how did you feel standing there on his doorstep?

<roseAZ> its was scarry and wonderful and i do it again :)

<^kira> rose, how long was your cyber relationship?

<roseAZ> Master and i met in Sept and i moved in Jan very fast it was intence

<^kira> How hard was it moving the relationship to rl from cyber?

<roseAZ> going from cyber to real was wonderful the leaving my job and changing friends and moving that was hard

<roseAZ> Master was allways there for me.. he is my strenth i can lean on him if the times get hard as they still do with a divorce process

<alyna`> roseAZ: How long into the relationship did you know you could trust Him?

<roseAZ> hmm good question... soon into it... i been on line for a while you get a sence of who someone is and what they are ...

<Sumptuou> When did you know that real life had to happen? What was that final signal roseAZ?

<roseAZ> i waited a whole till i couldnt stand it ... i had so many questions i had to know if i could really take this lifstyle... i had to prove it to myself that i could be a good submissive and to please my Master

<alyna`> roseAZ: Did alot of people online know him so you felt more comfortable with who he really was sooner?

<roseAZ> good question Master AZ was what he is now somthing of an anigma people see him and not many know him lots of rumor fly about him ...as they did then but i found out for myself who and what he is :)

<alyna`> roseAZ: in your opinion what is the biggest pyschological difference in cyber and RL if any?

<roseAZ> i dont have a good answer for that :)

<^kira> Duncan would like to as rose, if you found this a 'gentle' transition into slavery...it doesn't sound like it to Him.

<roseAZ> really it was a wonderful transiton perfect for me ... Master is a wise man he knows me ... he is kind and strict just what i always needed :)

<Sumptuou> Rose: What made rose become interested into bdsm..initially?

<roseAZ> let me say at the tender age of 13 i found John Norman Books and cut my teeth on Gorean Life, i have never read anything to this day that intesrts me more :)

<alyna`> roseAZ: Did you ever have any dom/sub experiences in your life before this?

<roseAZ> all my experiences have been as a sub... i had a Master for five month on line then a Mistress for a few both relationships ended because of my quest for realtime

<Sumptuou> Rose: What did MasterAZ do to help you make sure that rl was what you wanted?

<roseAZ> before i met Master i had only two play experiences then this 24/7 excusive relationship with MasterAZ... i was sure i wanted realtime there was not denying it

Sumptuou thanks roseAZ on behalf of #Submission_Discuss for their presentation this evening. If you have more questions or comments on roseAZ 's topic please save them for our open forum later this evening.

Sumptuou gives a warm welcome to alexus , again thank-you for offering to share with us this evening. If you are ready please begin...:)

alexus slinks up to the microphone

<alexus> Master David and I met at a conference several years ago. Before that time, I had been in RL BDSM relationships for about 9 years. He had also had several RL relationships. We didn't discuss BDSM when we met that first time, but I think we both felt the undercurrents right away.

<alexus> Because we lived several states away, we had to develop a friendship and BDSM relationship by IRC and phone. It didn't take us long to get on the subject of BDSM after we started talking on IRC. I invited him to join me on #Submission one night after we had both returned home.

<alexus> After that, we began to build on our friendship and that bloomed into romance and later a full fledged IRC BDSM relationship. We used IRC to explore our fantasies, our desires and our needs. After 4 months of chatting on line and phone, he came here. By that time, we were ready to take our BDSM relationship to REAL LIFE

<alexus> I think that spending as much time as we did on IRC and talking on the phone brought us closer than perhaps we would have if we had done it the "conventional way". Talking online, and on the phone with someone you have never met (or briefly met) is much easier than sitting across from that person. In our lifestyle, talking about our desires and fantasies is not always easy, especially when you don't know the person very well.

<alexus> On the computer, you can voice your thoughts much easier for the most part. You don't have to worry about getting that "look" of shock or what ever when you tell a person what it is you do or want. We also found that going to #Submission and other channels like it helped us

<alexus> Meeting others who shared our interests, and wants made it seem all the more real to us. IRC can be like a support group or family to couples who find themselves in a long distance or cyber relationship. We are all looking for somewhat the same thing, and we all eventually deal with the same issues.

<alexus> Master David asked me to wear his collar on IRC after a few months, and to me, it was like I already was wearing it. Our closeness had become so strong that I couldn't imagine submitting to anyone else and had no desire to share that part of me with any one but him.

<alexus> He gave me my real life collar the second weekend we were together in real life and the emotions I felt were more than I had dealt with ever before. By that time, I already loved him and trusted him, but we both wanted more. I was afraid he wasn't in the same "place" I was yet, that I was rushing him.

<alexus> He answered my worries that night, by chaining me to the hook in his ceiling. He flogged me , teased meý tormented me in every way. That scene lasted hours and after it was over, I knew our bond was complete.

<alexus> He had me kneel afterwards, and presented me with my real life collar. Taking it from cyber to RL just completed our journey, and my collar was proof of that to both of us.

alexus smiles and steps back

Action: Sumptuou would like to once again thank alexus for presenting your topic this evening, if you are now ready "^kira" and "alyna`" would like to ask you some of the questions they have collected while you were speaking.

<alexus> :)

<alyna`> alexus: what would you have done if your limit didn't match his?

<alexus> ok, the first was that we would have tried to find middle ground on the limits..

<Sumptuou> alexus: Do you think you would have been as open to going from IRC to RL MstrDavid had you not met him previously?

<alexus> Well, I had two other RL Masters, so I knew thats what I needed personally

Sumptuou thanks alexus on behalf of #Submission_Discuss for their presentation this evening. If you have more questions or comments on alexus 's topic please save them for our open forum later this evening.

Sumptuou gives a warm welcome to MastrDavd , again thank-you for offering to share with us this evening. If you are ready please begin...:)

<MstrDavid> thanks

<MstrDavid> I spent 4 days with alexus that first weekend, and we worked out what it was we both were wanting and needing out of this relationship. We discussed what I require as a Master, what her needs were, we negotiated rules and protocols.

<MstrDavid> At that point I think we both realized that we wanted a full time Master/slave relationship and were pretty sure we wanted it with each other. Since we lived several states away, we began the endless weekend airline flights back and forth

<MstrDavid> We built our BDSM relationship out of friendship, love and trust. Spending time on IRC before we actually took our BDSM relationship RL was good for both of us. Talking for hours at a time about our fantasies, our desires, created a bond.

<MstrDavid> The more we shared with each other, the closer we became and the more sure we both were that we wanted the same things. People say that its impossible to fall in love with a person by just talking to them on the computer. I disagree

<MstrDavid> I think often times, you get to know a person even BETTER that way. A lot of the "guards" you have built up are let down that way. Alexus and I shared every secret, every happiness and every sadness of our everyday lives. We grew closer that way.

<MstrDavid> It wasn`t JUST about BDSM, it was about learning who we both were. By the time we started spending RL time together, and dealing with our BDSM relationship, we already had a VERY strong friendship/love. It still takes a lot of learning and negotiating after you go real life, but the basis is already there.

<MstrDavid> Alexus required and still does require a strict Master and I give her that. We also have a lot of fun though. Her training has progressed over a period of years, but I believe that training a slave is an ongoing process.

<MstrDavid> Taking a cyber relationship to RL can be difficult, but when you both are clear and honest about what you want it can be very satisfying. The thing to remember is that everyone's situation will be different, just as everyones needs are different

<MstrDavid> Ive often been told that some people think she and I are TOO hard core in the way we live this lifestyle. That is a matter of opinion, what she and I need and get out of this type of relationship is going to be different than what others need.

<MstrDavid> Alexus and I are 24/7, but since we both have careers etc, it has been our task to work out times where we can enjoy this part of our lives, as well as have "down" time.

<MstrDavid> Communication is the key. Alexus wears my collar all the time when at home, and is my slave at all times. We both realize though, that the outside world must be dealt with as well. She cant always call me "Master" or "Sir" for example

<MstrDavid> Working out that part of our life has been the most challenging part of all this.

<MstrDavid> When you begin a BDSM relationship on IRC, its vital to find a person with whom you can honestly express your limits, and admit whether or not your needs match those of your partner.

<MstrDavid> Growing a relationship on IRC can be a wonderful tool as long as you both are careful to be OPEN about things like that. By the time you are ready, (if ever) to go RL, the details like that have already been worked out.

<MstrDavid> Then its simply a matter of exploring your new world together, and what an exciting journey!

MstrDavid smiles over at alexus

alexys smiles

Sumptuou would like to once again thank MastrDavd for presenting your topic this evening, if you are now ready "^kira" and "alyna`" would like to ask you some of the questions they have collected while you were speaking.

<^kira> MstrDavid, how important did You find it to spend those four days working out guidelines and limits...and would You recommend a D/s 'contract' to help set those guidelines? Were those set during the irc part of the relatio nship as well, or only after You and alexus met real life?

<MstrDavid> I feel a contract is a matter of preference, we just worked it out by talking

<MstrDavid> As far as IRC....

<MstrDavid> IRC was practice for RL, that way we had already developed a rhythm and knew what each other liked or disliked

<MstrDavid> talking was CRITICAL in those 4 days

<MstrDavid> I did have IRC rules for her and they were not all that different from her RL rules

<MstrDavid> go ahead

<alyna`> Did you exchange vows and do a written contract with parts of it acknowledging room for change and growth through renegotiation?

<MstrDavid> we exchanged vows when I collared her but there was never a written contract, we always agreed everything would be through consent that way there was room for growth and exploration

<MstrDavid> ga

<^kira> MastrDavd: How were You and alexus able to learn to trust one another completely while online and then in real life

<MstrDavid> trust was not complete until we met in RL the 2nd time and even then, trust is more of a feeling than it is a done deal, taking time to develop

<MstrDavid> there is no set formula to trust, every situation is different

<MstrDavid> feelings come heavily into play, alexus felt SAFE with me so it was easier for her to trust me

<MstrDavid> ga

<Sumptuou> MstrDavid do you regularly set time aside to *Play* say on Sat night ...or do and alexus belong to a BDSM club?

<MstrDavid> we have a few nights of "playtime" reserved but we are 24/7 even though some days, it is very subtle due to our busy schedules

<MstrDavid> we currently do not belong to any clubs because of our public careers

<MstrDavid> alexus does belong to a couple of lists where she writes and discusses BDSM often

<MstrDavid> ga

<Sumptuou> Okay i would like to thank all of our speakers roseAZ, alexus and MstrDavid for comming out tonight and sharing their amazing storied with us..;)))

<Sumptuou> The discussion is __NOW OPEN FORUM__

<MstrDavid> everyone can now type to channel

<Sumptuou> OOH WAIT

alexueps down off the stage

<Sumptuou> Kree has an announcement!

<Kree> Thanks Sump...This Friday evening we are having a discussion that I feel might be of interest on undernet...It is about from a masochists perspective with Valkyrie as a moderator....masochism is likely the least discussed and thus least understood portion of the BDSM lifestyle...I will now bore you with several macros.....

Kree would like to anounce : Announcment: A presentation on Masochism will be held Friday, Feb 28th. 10pm EST on #theedge. The presentation will be followed by a question period and open discussion. Please join us!

<Kree> Thanks KttN ...Sump

<Sumptuou> welcome Kree Sir *huggs*

alexus smiles at MstrDavid

<Sumptuou> randyvm do you have an questions at all?

<Sumptuou> anyone have questions or comments??

<HeavyMtl> I would like to know why most ppl think that sado/maso and Dom/sub are the same, in my clinical setting i know this is not so

MstrDavid smiles at alexus

Kree wants to thank all the speakers for sharing

<Sumptuou> HeavyMtL good question anyone have comments??

<Kree> Sump that i off the topic but iwill answer it

<alexus> I think S/M and DOM/sub lines cross often

<Sumptuou> Kree thanks Sir

<alexus> but you dont have to have one with the other

raianna can only speak for herself...that the term BDSM is one acronym..so I just thought it was the same..I am learning differently tho..

<MstrDavid> HeavyMtl, I think it is because those two things cross each others paths so much, people confuse the 2

<rissa^> all depends on the relationship between Dom/Sub..or Master/slave

<Kree> heh heh heh what alexus said ! LOL

<flower^> an excellent point, raianna.....and for many it all goes hand in hand!

alexus smiles at Kree

<Kree> ^5 alexus

<LordWODEN> I think that the M/S is an extreme of d/s . . . that the pain becomes the ra ison d'etre . . . rather than the caring guidance and control.

<Sumptuou> BDSM is many things to many people and involves a HUGE umbrella of kink

<alexus> speaking ON topic... has any one had RL experience leaving behind a life to go to a person they met CYBER.. and how did their family/friends take it?

<LordWODEN> I could also be WAY out in left field . . . but I doubt it.

<Sumptuou> LordWODEN many sadists think that the pain they give to their slave is a gift....it is done in love and to highten pleasure

raianna notes "caring guidance and control"...nicely put...

<Kree> alexus good question....

<Sumptuou> alexus no i have not myself but i have thought about that myself often

<HeavyMtl> I had a patient who was Sadistic to point of going to jail, I asked him ,"do u think u were born with the "need" to hurt ppl and get pleasure out of it" he finally realized what i was saying!

<LordWODEN> I'm sure they do . . . and for them it is right. But the pain itself is the dominant criteria, as opposed to simply dominance and correction.

<oreoh> LordWoden: and some enjoy getting pain.. to me, the pain is a gift.. not a punishment

<Sumptuou> LordWODEN well if they reward with pain is that so?

Action: rissa^ agrees with oreoh

<qt-pie> wouldn't that depend on why the pain is given oreoh?

<oreoh> not always,, LordWoden.. the two can combine.. the pain isn't always the controlling factor.. my submission is

<LordWODEN> I agree oreoh . . . my point is which is the overriding motivation? Can you help me to understand that?

<oreoh> of course, qt.. but I was never given pain as a punishment, because I enjoyed it

<rissa^> good point qt-pie..

<Sumptuou> i love pain for pleasure myself...but there is a difference between erotic pain and hurt pain...that is where i like to end it.

<LordWODEN> The witholding of pain is then the punishment for you?

<qt-pie> i too enjoy pain, but when Master gives it to me out of anger or disappointment...it is not pleasurable

<shedevyl> I don't think they are the same, HeavyMtl.

<Sumptuou> oreoh LOL that is so true eh? often the worst punishment is being ignored

<oreoh> yes, LordWoden.. or things I dont enjoy.. like being tickled.. I HATE that

<rissa^> exactly qt-pie...there is a difference between punishment pain and pleasure pain

<Sumptuou> qt-pie exactly!

<{hannah}> i find that the same stroke or smack, etc can have many meanings.. depending on the intent... as a gift, it's exquisite... as a punishment, it's torture

<LordWODEN> So the endowment of pain is relative to the spitit in which it is given . . . that makes a bit more sense to me. Thank you.

<oreoh> exactly Sumpt.. the worst threat my Master (granted, online) made to me was to ignore me for 3 days.. I NEVER disobeyed him again

<rissa^> but also the Master can give punishment pain at any time if he so desires..for his pleasure

flower^ smiles at rissa, knowing that many Masters feel that way and pleasing them is utmost

<oreoh> Tek: I was just saying that you never gave me painn for punishment when you owned me.. that your threat to ignore me was worse than any pain you could have given me

<Sumptuou> LordWODEN oh yes for srue the thoughts behind the pain are very important most sub's/slaves live for the pleasure of their Master and to displease him is horrific

<^kira> silence speaks louder than words quite often.

qt-pie still believes there is a difference in a Master giving punishment for his pleasure and a Master giving punishment out of anger or disappointment

<rissa^> ohh absolutely qt-pie...

<oreoh> oh definitely, qt.. I wasn't arguing that

<qt-pie> agreed, but sometimes words need to be clarified for those that are not totally enlightened oreoh :)

<LordWODEN> The discussion was quite enlightening . . . as was the open forum afterwards. Thank you.

<{hannah}> qt-pie... i would pray that NO MASTER would ever strike in the midst of genuine anger.. that is very dangerous

<MstrDavid> well folks, if you would excuse alexus and I, we are going to get some dinner

<alexus> thank you all for having us!!

<qt-pie> hannah - - what if that is what brings the Master pleasure?

<rissa^> ahh but hannah....that is where trust comes into play

<qt-pie> very true rissa

<MstrDavid> thank you all very much

<MstrDavid> let's go eat alexus, I am STARVING

<Sumptuou> goodnight MStrDavid an dalexus

alexus grins

<{hannah}> i think there's a difference between play anger and genuine anger... i would never advocate being struck in genuine anger... there should be a better way to settle the fight over how forgot to feed the dog

alexus waves

<Kree> nite MD, alexus!

<raianna> Thanks MstrDavid and and alexus!!

<^kira> i agree hannah

<shedevyl> ack...thanks all...for your opinions.

^kira hugz MstrDavid and alexus goodnight. and Thank You both!

<qt-pie> but there will be times with the pain is given from anger

<rissa^> feeding the dog is ridiculous...but disrespect could be the reason why..and trusting your Master not to really hurt you is trust

<rissa^> again it all depends on the relationship that you have

<Syrass> hihi

<rissa^> if the relationship is so that the Master gets pleasure from giving pain..either in anger or pleasure so be it..it is up to the parties involved

<Syrass> sorry I'm late

<Sumptuou> no problem Syrass Sir we are in open forum chat now...:) just join right in Sir

<flower^> i'd like to ask anyone (subs, of course) if they've experienced a need for release that only a certain type of punishment can offer ???

<qt-pie> punishment or pain flower?

<Sumptuou> flower i have...i love to be spanked.

<flower^> in essence, both, qt-pie

<^kira> again, i agree with hanna whole heartedly.

<Syrass> flower: rabbit has.. yes

Action: {hannah} hugs kira

<flower^> is it a form of release for you, Sump??

<rissa^> sometimes it is for me flower

<Sumptuou> well it leads to it because of the feelings it arouses

<flower^> i understand, thanks, Sump.......thanks, rissa

<oreoh> I do flower...

<Sumptuou> especially when it is done with command for orgasm after so many spankings...with vaginal stimulation i love ruff sex

<^kira> Hopefully the couple has worked through these issues before such a situation arises...adn they know what to expect.

<rissa^> absolutely kira...

<flower^> i agree, kira......but i'm wondering if some subs are timid about bringing such a matter up to their Dom

<{hannah}> agreed kira.... negotiation and open communication... and renegotiation anywhere along the way

<Sumptuou> i would never want my Master to punish me if he was really mad at the time...he would always wait until the anger cleared..so he is in full control

<Sumptuou> flower mine askes me

<oreoh> I agree, Sumpt

<{hannah}> exactly Sumpt!!!

<rissa^> Master's should be infull control at all times angry or not

<qt-pie> agreed rissa

<flower^> that's great, Sump!!

Sumptuou *blushes* yes i am very lucky to have such a caring Master..he demands feedback and i willingly give it

<Syrass> rissa: Masters should not need to be in control at all times tho

<LordWODEN> It's unwise to exercise dominion over another when you are really angry.

<rissa^> in control of their actions..towards their slaves..when punishing they should

<LordWODEN> Masters should always exercise wisdom and good judgement, should they not?

<rissa^> absolutely

<Kree> yes WODEN

<raianna> agree LordWODEN...

<LordWODEN> Or insofar as they are capable, anyway.

<shy1{GF}> unfortunately a Dom is human, just like a sub and capable of making mistakes

<Sumptuou> LordWODEN it is my belief that a good Master is in control of himself FIRST!

Action: Sumptuou *smiles*

<Kree> when anger enters any situation it becomes the Master of all it touches....without controling anger, a Master cant control a scene since anger WILL control it

<qt-pie> but we should all be able to recognize and learn from out mistakes

<rissa^> again depends on the relationship..depends on the needs of the Master and sub

Action: raianna notes the FIRST!

Action: alexa^ smiles at WODEN.....and also unwise for a sub to allow it <S>

<LordWODEN> I had a topic set on my "home" channel like that a week or so ago . . . "Fitrst UNDERSTAND yourslef . . . the understaznding of others will follow."

<Syrass> Kree: I disagree with what you said.. but agree with the concept

Action: Sumptuou *winks* to rianna teehee

<^kira> flower, i think that there is no room for timidity when it comes to ones safety and the limits and boundaries involved in D/s and s/m

<LordWODEN> But I TYPED it MUCH better!! :)

<Sumptuou> LOL

<flower^> i agree completely, kira!

<^kira> open communication is paramount to safe, sane and consentual

<Sumptuou> kira excellent point!

<Kree> yes kira

<dimi^> There's a difference between administering a punishment when the sub/masochist "needs" it (physically/psychologically/emotionally) and administering out of anger caused by an argument or debate (kinda like bullying) (which is wrong).

<rissa^> communication is key in any relationship especially D/s

Action: qt-pie has to go...thank you for the discussion...goodnight

<dimi^> oops

<oreoh> I definitely agree kira

<Syrass> there shouldn't be the situation where there is an argument.. it should be a discussion or a swaping of Ideas.. and therefore no argument

<^kira> well..not unfortunate, shy1 but true nontheless...

<Sumptuou> Syrass so do you think it is approprate at that time to drop the Dom/sub roles Sir?

<dimi^> Regardless, arguments/fights/debates happen whether we like it or not and cause anger.

<LordWODEN> You're right rissa^.

<^kira> agreed Kree...anger Masters everything when it is present

<LordWODEN> Then you have control, don't you, Syrass?

<Syrass> Sumptuou: well it depends on the relationship.. rabbit and I never do... but we do "dull" them or put them into the background if we need to discuss something

<Sumptuou> ack we have lag here i think

<Kree> dimi wouldnt a punishment for a masochist be to NOT punish physically?

<rissa^> a slave can also have an agreement with her Master for free time a time when opinions can be expressed with no repercussions

<Sumptuou> makes scene to me Sir...:)

<Syrass> WODEN: I always have control... I am a very controld person

<LordWODEN> A Master who cannot control himself should have no dominion over others . . . he's a danger to them.

{hannah} nods at Kree... i know for me that is the case

<Kree> yes hannah......

<LordWODEN> As you should be, Syrass . . .

<dimi^> No, Kree, not necessarily. I'm a masochist. In fact, I'm highly masochistic. That doesn't mean I always *like* pain. In fact, I don't like liking it. I need it whether I like needing it or not. (if you can understand that).

<LordWODEN> But not ALL Masters have that control . . .

<LordWODEN> and they are not true Masters.

<oreoh> I understand, dimi

<dimi^> Thank you, oreoh. :)

<Syrass> WODEN: some are true masters.. but dont have control.. they can use other methods tho... the safeword methoid can also translate through

<Sumptuou> LordWODEN yes that is the point they are not *true* Master's there a difference between Domination and abuse Sir.

<LordWODEN> There is a distinction between "needs" and "likes" . . . but needs MUST be fulfilled. Likes are superfous things.

<oreoh> I dont like needing it either

<LordWODEN> It is understandable, dimi.

<Sumptuou> dimi i understand your pont too

<{hannah}> i understand too, dimi.. that's why NOT punishing me is the worst punishment of all

Action: raianna does not quite understand dimi's words..

<Kree> dimi one more reading and iwill have a handle on it.......smiles.... ok but if you need the pain, punishment would be to not fulfil a need

<LordWODEN> But we have little control over our needs . . . if we sublimate them we forfeit pleasure . . . or worse.

<Kree> raianna the third reading is the charm

<Syrass> likes are needs in a way.. you need a certain about of likes

<Sumptuou> hannah lol so true for so many of us .....ignoring is the worst punishment, i think i said that

<^kira> i'm so lagged i have grand kids now.

<Kree> lol kira

<LordWODEN> LOL, ^kira!!

<Sumptuou> lol kira!

<{hannah}> lol Sumpt you got it!

<oreoh> lol kira

<slavetoy> congrats kirs hun

<rissa^> lol kira

oreoh nods in agreement to Sumpt

<dimi^> It's a constant battle within, Kree. I *know* I need the pain, but that doesn't mean I always "want" it. Hell, it HURTS. Yes, it's a punishment to me... almost always.

<flower^> well THAT was painless, huh kira? ;)

<Kree> ok dimi...thanks for that insight...

<Sumptuou> rainna i think what dimi was saying is that there are times where she needs pain more then others and pain feels different at different times...especially the reasons and situation surounding it make a big difference

<Syrass> I think that not punishing is a great form of punishment... especialy placed with the words "I am disapointed"

<LordWODEN> The safeword is useful only to the cognizent mind . . . a "terrorist" is not apr to respond that well.

Kree thinks kira has found the source of virgin birth......lag

<Sumptuou> ack!!! Syrasss..the words "Disappointed" are too terrible...you are right about that Sir....i could not think of worse punishment

<raianna> thanks Sump...I think I *understand*..

<oreoh> I get depressed when my need for pain isn't fufilled.. not severely.. but I do.. and having someone that understands that need.. and cares enough for me to fufill it, means a lot

<Syrass> Sump: I can *grin*

<Sumptuou> welcome raianna..:)

<LordWODEN> I LOVE A GOOD DISUSSION!!! :)

<Sumptuou> Syrass really?? what is that Sir?

<LordWODEN> And now I will take my leave . . . thank you all.

<dimi^> Well, there's definately a difference between a light spanking, which can be very erotic - in fact, many "vanilla" couples enjoy it - and an all out flogging.

<raianna> good bye LordWODEN Sir..

<Sumptuou> good then come everyweek LordWODEN we are planning them just for people like you!

<Syrass> oreoh: I think that is important.. weather it be pain or love or both etc

<flower^> very true, dimi!

<Syrass> Sump: to ignore the sub asif they arent there

<shy1{GF}> can a sub compare her relationship to her Dom as that of a relationship of a child to a parent <remembering the many times a parent has told me they're disappointed in me>

<Sumptuou> welcome LordWODEN...:) have a good night Sir

oreoh nods in agreement to Syrass

<LordWODEN> Thank you, Sumtuo . . . I shall.

<oreoh> I think it's deeper than that, shy1

<flower^> nope, yer a figment of my imagination! lol

<Sumptuou> Syrass oh i had thought you said you would do that in conjunction with the "Disappointment" phraze?

<shy1{GF}> i'm just curious, oreoh...since i've never really experienced r/l submission

<Sumptuou> Syrass when you do this...total ignoring does it please you more if she ignores you back? Or if she vias for your attentions? If so if she vias in a sexual mannor in a bratty mannor?

<^kira> Kree...i just wonder what You do when You find that You are so angry that You know it best not to even lay a hand on Your sub until You have calmed.

<Syrass> Sump: I mean where one walks around the kneeling sub and goes has their on meals with or without them.. watches tv.. all that sorda thing.. jsut totaly ignoring them

alexa^ smiles at Sumptuous......gotta go love......thanks for having me.....<S>

<oreoh> do you feel 'fatherly' towards GF, shy1?

<Kree> kira

<Syrass> Sump: I dont think it matters... it is nice to see the caring if the do via for attention.. sometimes it is just a royal pain tho

<Kree> I simply refuse to get that angry

<dimi^> I never once liked liking pain. Logically (in my opinion) it's wrong. I feel it's against the brain's natural instinct for survival. We resist pain (or most normal people do (if anyone really fits into the category "normal")). However, it fulfills my emotional and psychological needs. There's a constant battle going on there.

<shy1{GF}> oh heck no, oreoh!!!!!! <grin> in fact i feel more of the exact opposite.....that sometimes i feel like His child!

<^kira> What takes it's place then, Kree..everyone gets angry, whether they like it or not.

<Kree> kira that might also be a function of age...I learned long ago to control anger because my temper is too bad to let out....so I learned way tochannel it of necessity

<oreoh> oh, that's what I meant to ask, shy1 :)

<Sumptuou> Syrass i suppose i shouldh ave asked it this way...which will get you to brake down sooner the submitting to the ignoring or resisting the ignoring...most subs would prefure some kind of negative punishment to none at all?

<Kree> kir

<Kree> when I am what most people would call angry

<Syrass> Sump: dosent matter

<Kree> I speak softer

<Kree> I take the emotion inside and make it cold rage and focus

<Sumptuou> dimi does getting the pain let you free yourself of something?

<dimi^> Negative, positive... attention is attention whichever way we can get it.

<Sumptuou> dimi exactly it is all better then ignoring..:)

<^kira> i hate to be ignored, but it is the most effective form of punishment for me. =\

<Sumptuou> me too kira it is terrible

<^kira> hope no one is takin notes. lol

<^kira> i see Kree...*hugs* thanks love, for sharing with me.

<Sumptuou> LOL kira was thinking the same thing

<oreoh> me too, kira

<Kree> kira that is the best way to punish

<dimi^> It fulfills a need, Sumptuou. I never did quite figure out if I was being freed from something. I just know I'm getting what I need.

<Sumptuou> Syrass but which will make you break down sooner is what i am wondering?

<ariel_> hello

<^kira> i agree Kree...sure makes Lightnin's point quickly.

<Sumptuou> when i say break down i mean break down and give the sub negative or positive attention?

<dimi^> Perhaps deep down I feel I deserve it. *shrug*

<Kree> yes

<dimi^> Maybe it absolves me from some sin I feel I've committed. I really don't know.

Action: ^kira huggles Kree cuz He's so smart and loving. ;)

<Syrass> goda go

<Syrass> Sump: ill talk to ya latah

<Sumptuou> okay SO to all your Dom's out there...when you are really giving punishment do you look for contrite behavior or rebelious behavior?

<raianna> but dimi...that feeling of "deserving"....is one that is often felt by those in abusive situations...and I think that is what concerns and confuses me here..

Action: Kree ficks kira cause she needs it

<^kira> good question Sump

<Sumptuou> kira i want to find out how to stop the punishment as soon as possible LOL

Sumptuou likes to anticpate the needs of my Master...

raianna agrees with Sump..that ingnoring gets me..

^kira likes coverin all the bases.

<raianna> er..ignoring..:)

<oreoh> it's the sign of a good sub, Sumpt..

<^kira> okay, who took Kree

<dimi^> My relationship with my dom of 10 years (my ex husband) was never really abusive, raianna. He always treated me with respect. He was never really a "true" sadist. He never once liked administering a physical punishment. He only did it (and he would use whatever means possible to try to *avoid* it) when he knew I truly needed it.

raianna nods...thanks dimi...I *have* been in an abusive situation...and so..sometimes..I need deeper understanding of some of the bdsm ways..thanks for your patience...

<slavetoy> Sump i agree too I am being ignored now and i am "pissed" in a big way

damsl I thank you to dimi for the same reasons

raianna hugs damsl

<damsl> I must take my leave now..thank you all for the informative discussion

<raianna> bye damsl...:)

<calesta> Later all

<Sumptuou> everyone tonights discussion is officially over...but if you wish to stay and continue please do...next week Tigger{2} is speaking you will be updated on his topic though our e-mailing list..:)) Thankyou all so much for comming and showing your support!