Sumptuous gives a warm welcome to Tigger{2} , again thank-you for offering to share with us this evening. If you are ready please begin...:)

<Tigger{2}> ok folks.. bear with me ... I type slow

<Tigger{2}> As most of you know, I have made the presentation materials for tonight available on the web

<Tigger{2}> Go to www.wizard.net/~tigger/subtalk.htm for a copy of tonight's discussion

<Tigger{2}> you can keep up, read ahead or whatever as you like

<PapaHem> thanks

<Tigger{2}> I'm rambling now for a few moments to let everyone catch up, join, and read the bot's msg

<Tigger{2}> I will be presenting the whole in three parts.... and will answer questions between

<Tigger{2}> The Importance of Self-Identity in a Sub -or- How to Demand the Most from a Dom (without topping from the bottom) by Tigger{2}

<Tigger{2}> **************************************

<Tigger{2}> * Standard Disclaimer *

<Tigger{2}> **************************************

<Tigger{2}> The views expressed represent my own observations and opinions. They are not directed at any particular individual(s). Please, don't waste your time or mine with "your kink is not my kink" flames or personal testimonials. If a certain style of d/s suits you, that's wonderful. Questions and discussions of substance can be sent to: tigger@wizard.net

<Tigger{2}> **************************************

<Tigger{2}> INTRODUCTION

<Tigger{2}> Most of my remarks are directed at women newly exploring their submissiveness. (I suppose they would apply to male subs, but I couldn't say with any certainty). Lately, I have talked with several women experiencing similar problems with doms (dishonesty and trust issues), and wrestling with more or less the same issues about their role as sub. What follows is a summary of my advice and commentary to them on how to avoid similar problems in

<Tigger{2}> WHAT IS SELF-IDENTITY?

<Tigger{2}> As I am using it, "self-identity" is short-hand for a strong sense of self, a backbone, a take-no-shit attitude, a certain level of confidence, a highly developed individualistic streak, and similar qualities that allow a woman to stand on her own two feet.

<Tigger{2}> Naturally, for some, the whole point to being sub is to be removed from having to be in the decision-making role. However, even in such a case, self-identity is still an important quality.

<Tigger{2}> WHY IS SELF-IDENTITY IMPORTANT?

<Tigger{2}> * MASTER ISN'T ALWAYS GOING TO BE THERE.

<Tigger{2}> It's wonderful to be able to say that "Master protects me." Real life being what it is, it isn't always going to be the case. He could get hit by a bus. Or leave you for another. It happens.

<Tigger{2}> I have seen too many women here and in real life (my mother being one) who after years of marriage suddenly find themselves fending for themselves for the first time in a long while... or ever. The crisis of identity that occurs is not pretty.

<Tigger{2}> * PREVENTS MISUNDERSTANDINGS AND OTHER ABUSES OF TRUST IN THE FIRST PLACE.

<Tigger{2}> Ensuring that as much honest discussion as possible occurs before the first article of clothing is removed will go a long way to preventing mistakes and misunderstandings. Doms are human beings, and as such, make mistakes.

<Tigger{2}> Knowing and understanding your limits and needs will prevent abuses of trust. Clearly defining boundaries (even if those boundaries are to be tested and pushed) also gives you a way to build a bond of trust. The more opportunities to show you that he understands and respects your limits, the

<Tigger{2}> The more opportunities to show you that he understands and respects your limits, the stronger that trust will be. By clearly defining the terms of engagement you are fostering such opportunities.

<Tigger{2}> ok.. GA

<Tigger{2}> at last check I was about 20 seconds behind most people... so bear with me in answering your questions

<Sumptuous> does anyone have any questions or comments?? please raise your ! or ? to show the QUEUE tongiths QUEUE is alyna

<alyna``> GO AHEAD: Whap

<Whap> What a re the most important questions for a sub to ask a potential Dom??

<Tigger{2}> well.. my first answer would be to stay tuned.. some of that is answered in the upcoming parts....

<Tigger{2}> but...the most important questions are those that answer questions that build truast.. that force a dom to make honest answers.. questions about motivations and practices....

<Tigger{2}> why are they dom?

<Tigger{2}> what do they get out of it?

<Tigger{2}> questions that at first, seem to challenge the very authority of the dom

<Tigger{2}> is that enough Whap?

<Whap> For now, yes Tigger. Thanks

<Tigger{2}> raianna??

<alyna``> Go ahead: raianna

<raianna> Tigger, you really hit a chord with me regarding challenging the authority of a dom..I have been told a couple of times..that a sub is being disrespectful when asking those types of questions....thank you for this enlightenment..

<Tigger{2}> raianna: you are welcome... I was saving this for later, but what the hell... I hear from women constantly that they want a STRONG dom

<Tigger{2}> in my mind, the strongest dom is one that can stand up to the tough questions, live with the negotiated limits and STILL find a way to command....

<Tigger{2}> a "DOM" that has to resort to misdirection, half-truths, incomplte explanations and other deciets is no dom at all

<Tigger{2}> apologies for typos

<Tigger{2}> next question

<alyna``> Go ahead: swansong^

<swansong^> thank you...I did have a question, but I think it would best wait till after Tigger has finished his speech...but I would like to just add a comment regarding trust...

<Tigger{2}> go ahead swan

<swansong^> to be absolutely certain the Dom is on the up and up...ask for two articles of identification...his DL and either home number or work #.....home # works best, if he refuses to give it...could be married, and sub may not be looking for a married Dom

<Tigger{2}> (and then I think I'll present the next section)

Tigger{2} speak...after a section of topic is finished we ask that you follow the instructions that were /msg'd to you by our bot MMMindy to bring forth your questions and comments...:)

<Tigger{2}> ok.. next section

<Tigger{2}> since there weren't any more questions

<Tigger{2}> HOW CAN A SUB EXERCISE HER SELF-IDENTITY AND STILL BE SUB?

<Tigger{2}> * NEGOTIATE IN *FULL* BEFORE ALLOWING *ANYTHING* TO HAPPEN.

<Tigger{2}> Talk not only about limits, but about things within those limits. You do not need to be precise about what will happen during play we don't have to ruin the sense of anticipation or mystery - but do discuss the parameters of types of interaction (safety concerns to be sure, but also the joys and fears of all types of play).

<Tigger{2}> One comment I hear a lot from subs is "But I don't know what to ask..." Start talking... the questions will come if the discussion is honest. Start with easy questions... discuss oral sex... everyone has opinions and preferences on that. If you get stuck, ask the question "Is there anything I should be asking?" (This is actually a very telling question... pay attention to his response to this question.)

<Tigger{2}> One reason for engaging in prolonged negotiations is it gives the unscrupulous or inept doms a chance to trip themselves up. It is an unfortunate reality that they exist. We would be doing ourselves a disservice if we ignored this reality. I tell subs to treat new doms like used car salesman... don't be fooled by the charm.

<Tigger{2}> * IF IT WASN'T DISCUSSED BEFOREHAND, DON'T LET IT HAPPEN DURING PLAY.

<Tigger{2}> The corollary to the previous section is that ANYTHING that wasn't discussed in negotiation should NOT be allowed to enter into play. This is the really tough one to enforce, because once play begins, subs tend to get swept up in emotion/arousal and their own desires to please (or to not disappoint). But if the dom whips out a knife, and edgeplay wasn't discussed, make him put it back. This even goes for dildos and other "innocuous" play.

<Tigger{2}> Make certain that if any toy has been used on another person, that it has been sterilized (chlorine bleach) and not just washed in soap and water.)

<Tigger{2}> The logical extension of this is that Doms should NOT "up the ante" during play. That is, they should never take advantage of a sub lost in headspace. Pressing such an advantage is patently unfair and (IMHO) the sign of a weak dom. Using the headspace to test limits is one thing (if such pushing has been discussed beforehand). Using it to spring surprises on a sub is opportunistic and cowardly.

<Tigger{2}> [!!!! this is the heart of my presentation !!!]

<Tigger{2}> *THIS APPLIES TO COLLARS.* Proffering a collar is not something that should ever, ever be done during a scene. It is a serious decision that must be made while BOTH parties are in full control of their faculties... stone cold sober. I have heard from several subs of "masters" who offer a collar without a discussion of all the responsibilities and commitments that are entailed beforehand.

<Tigger{2}> It goes like this: After teasing and playing with a sub, giving her an orgasm or three, the "master" leans in close and whispers, "Who's your Dom? Who's your Master? Who loves you, baby?" What is the sub supposed to say? "Well, to be honest, I'm talking with a couple of guys... but please continue with what you were doing..."

<Tigger{2}> Not going to happen... What will happen is she will say "You are, Sir." Then the dom will reach for a collar and say "Wear this as a symbol of your devotion/submission?" Then, AFTER the collar is already in place, he starts telling her about what is and isn't expexpected

<Tigger{2}> Then, AFTER the collar is already in place, he starts telling her about what is and isn't expected of her. This is ASS-BACKWARDS. If something like this should happen to you, decline the collar... you can always accept it later.

<Tigger{2}> (I am not suggesting that all doms are like this. But I have heard this kind of story told enough times to know that it happens with some regularity. And again, if it happened to you and you are happy with the results, wonderful... you are one of the lucky ones. I still think the practice is highly questionable.)

<Tigger{2}> questions?

<Tigg2> ok... I'll continue from here

<Tigger{2}> dimi: go ahead

<dimi^> In my opinion, there shouldn't be a *need* to do any of these things during a "scene". Entering a d/s relationship is much like entering a "marriage" of sorts. A dom and sub *should* know each other much like a husband and wife should know each other before making that kind of commitment.

<Tigger{2}> dimi: i would agree... but there has been a lot of rushing into "collars".... I have to believe that SOME, if not all, on the impetus towards this is on the part of the doms.... that sure seems to be the way of it in the stories I have been told by them

<Tigger{2}> dimi: anything else?

<alyna``> Go ahead: SirSirpen

<SirSirpen> where do you draw the line between a submissive being strong of determination (backbone) and being disrespectful to her Dom - or anyother Dom for that matter - I have found this a difficult decission to make, many times

<Tigger{2}> FYI: half the people here are coming in under 30 seconds and the other half are a minute and a half.. so bear with us

<Tigger{2}> SS: nice question...

<Tigger{2}> first: I don't think a sub should worry about being disrespectful to OTHER doms....

<SirSirpen> k

<Tigger{2}> if she has no outstanding agreement with an individual, then ANY stance she takes is her own business...

<Tigger{2}> personally I do not buy into the notion that what hse does away from her Dom is a reflection on him

<Tigger{2}> more importantly to our discussion, though....

<Tigger{2}> what we are talking about is a new arrangement.. the intitial discussions with someone...

<SirSirpen> agree

<dimi^> No. (sorry I'm lagging) I think it's unfortunate that many subs seems to be desperate to get into a relationship and leave themselves open and vulnerable to that type of thing happening. Rather than focusing on making them aware that they CAN say "No" and they SHOULD ask questions during a scene, the focus should be on "Preventative medicine". - making them aware that they should KNOW everything BEFORE making that all important step.

<Tigger{2}> however.... these principles also hold when we talk about new negotiations or new territory between an established couple

<alyna``> Queue: starfire

<Tigger{2}> a dom must be willing to explain at least the principles behind a new form of play... if not the details.. I have one "scene" worked out that requires the details to be kept secret... however, I will mention to anyone I broach it with that it involves blindfolds, public places, and sex... and discuss the parameters of each with her

<Tigger{2}> dimi: agreed (sorry you are lagging )

<Tigger{2}> I hope that addresses the question SS?

<SirSirpen> thanks, Tigger :)

<Tigger{2}> I think star is up next...

<alyna``> Go ahead: starfire

<starfire> Ok, since i am new, is there any way to tell if a guy is truly Dom and not just someone that likes to use/abuse women?

<Tigger{2}> oooh... that's a tough one.....

<Tigger{2}> offhand I would say that here ARE doms who have been at this a while who might even be very good at what they do... but are still masking tendencies to abuse

<Tigger{2}> which is why you should always ask a dom to explore and explin his motivations for WHY he considers himself dom, and why he pursues it

<Tigger{2}> and put the answers to the bullshit meter

<Tigger{2}> I'm afraid that's the best I can offer

<starfire> ok, i guess, but i have done that and the guys answer with what ya want to hear

<Tigger{2}> GA

<fireNdark> star, I'm thinking that would be a test (if you will) of the trust you have for your DOM or potential DOM.

<starfire> but thanks anyways!!

<alyna``> go ahead {debbi^}

<{debbi^}> I was wondering if you can give me any pointers/guidelines on a safe r/l meeting

<Tigger{2}> debbi^: briefly, let someone know the details.... have an agreed upon exit time and check in with that person (while alone)

<Tigger{2}> let the dom know that these are the conditions up fornt and stick to them

{debbi^} nods..thanks

<Tigger{2}> and talk about any play that might be involved BEFORE the meeting

<Tigger{2}> that's a little off -topic, so I am cutting the answer short...

<Tigger{2}> ok?

<{debbi^}> sorry..ok

<{debbi^}> didn't realize

<alyna``> Go ahead: fireNdark

<fireNdark> spend as much time as you need getting to know him/her, get comfortable. And, it doesn't hurt to get pointers. LOL, I'd love to see some of these resumes'

<Tigger{2}> true.. references couldn't hurt... let's face it, the "community" is a little incestuous

<Tigger{2}> fireNdark: your wquestion please, sweetie

<Tigger{2}> debbie: it's a very good question.. ask it again of several of us... we will give you laundry lists...

<astraea^> GA fireNdark

<Tigger{2}> actually, the more I think of it, it isn't so off-topic...

<{debbi^}> thanks you, Tig

<fireNdark> sorry, no ?

{debbi^} smiles

<astraea^> GA shy1{GF}

<shy1{GF}> just a comment on the previous discussion about treating Doms, regardless of whether they're your Dom or somebody else's....i think we all owe one another courteous treatment, not just a sub to Dom communication

<Tigger{2}> debbie: you need to set out specifics of the meeting.. and at the slightest sign that hey are being strayed from -- RUN LIKE HELL.... and tell the dom this up front... that will make an honest negotiator of him

<Tigger{2}> shy: courtesy is different form "respect" as it is meant between dom and sub

<shy1{GF}> agree Tigger

<Tigger{2}> by all means be polite to everyone until they prove that they don't deserve it

<{debbi^}> well..may I continue along this line with more questions? or do I need to re-queue?

<Tigger{2}> debbi: go ahead.. I cut you off too soon

<Tigger{2}> MY apologies

<Tigger{2}> I got clock-nervous

<{debbi^}> np :)

<Tigger{2}> but we have one more section to get thru... so in ten minutes I will continue

<Tigger{2}> debbi: your question, in fact, gets at the heart of the up-the-ante during play comments I made in the presentation

<{debbi^}> so..a for instance..would be..ok..I have someone set up to be my safe person..she says she will wait for my phone call..and I make the call..what happens after that..make hourly phone calls or something? I guess maybe I'm looking for a fail-safe way to be safe ?

<Tigger{2}> debbi: no.. the safe call must be made AFTER you are away from the person.....

<{debbi^}> ah..I see...

<Tigger{2}> so that he can't be holding a knife to your throat or a gun, or have you tied up making the call

<{debbi^}> makes better sense

<{debbi^}> thank you

<Tigger{2}> if you are going to meet for an overnight... (NOT a good idea for a first meeting) then make the call at noon... you can always go back

<alyna``> Tigger with all due respect, i differ on opinions on the safe call..

<alyna``> i believe it needs to be placed both with and after...

<Tigger{2}> ok...

<Tigger{2}> that's a wise added precaution...

<alyna``> because "code words" can be used even if a knife is held to the throat if they are chosen correclty...

lilhelfyr agrees with alyna

<alyna``> but the value of a safe call rests in both parties hands...

<Tigger{2}> my point was the dom should be aware that he is expected to leave after a certain point even BEFORE meeting

<alyna``> because the recipient must ahve the information to AND the "guts" to take action if the code words for "danger" are used.

<Tigger{2}> alyna: true.. when I safe called for someone, she had a code word

<Tigger{2}> the best person to be your safety call is someone who would rather you hadn't gone in the first place... like a competing dom :)

<Tigger{2}> LOL

<Tigger{2}> they would have no problem blowing the whistle if need be :)

<{debbi^}> LOL

<Tigger{2}> ok.. I'm going to continue with the last section

<Tigger{2}> * -DEMAND- HONESTY. FULL DISCLOSURE.

<Tigger{2}> This is even harder than tough negotiating. It seems like a direct challenge to a dom's authority. Submission is not automatic, however. It is an active choice on a sub's part each and every time a demand is place on her. Honesty from a dom should be a requirement of a sub in order to give that submission.

<Tigger{2}> The sad truth is that there are Doms who flirt up several subs at once AND are not truthful about it. Even to the point of collaring one and flirting up others behind her back. Some doms have even gone so far as to limit a sub's IRC interaction to prevent her from learning of his promiscuity.

<Tigger{2}> It is one thing to be above board and fully inform your partner's about your activities. At least then, they have the information to make a reasonable choice about whether they want to be a part of such an arrangement.

<Tigger{2}> Being truthful is also more than just not telling lies. Sins of omission are still deceptions. You can not get off on a technicality.

<Tigger{2}> * IF A DOM BALKS AT SUCH HARD-LINE NEGOTIATING, RUN LIKE HELL.

<Tigger{2}> If he doesn't respect your limits now, he isn't likely to later. Don't buy into the "If you loved me, you'd trust me..." bullshit. It is manipulative. The correct response is, "If you love ME, you'd be open and honest with me."

<Tigger{2}> A Dom who is NOT insecure should not have any problems with full disclosure up front or with respecting and understanding your limits. Trust is earned. And once negotiations are finished and the fun begins, there is plenty of room for you to express your submission to him.

<Tigger{2}> What I am talking about is a sense of appropriateness. Everything in it's place and at the right time. It requires patience, resolve, and determination. In the long run, I believe, it will lead to safer and more enjoyable d/s experiences for all.

<Tigger{2}> ok..

<Tigger{2}> GA

<Tigger{2}> that's the whole of the prepared text...

<astraea^> Queue - OPEN -

<astraea^> Kree, GA

<Kree> Just another comment on the safety aspect

<Kree> I feel it wise at least fr a first meeting that the person entrusted to receive that call have full information

<Kree> perhaps a copy of a drivers license

<Kree> and an address

<Kree> and phone number where the meeting is taking place

<Kree> if the dominant will not provide this

<Kree> simply do not go

<Kree> if you are the contact

<Kree> and the call doesnt come

<Kree> immediately call the police

<Tigger{2}> absolutely... they aren't much good in identifying the body if they don't know what you look like...

<Kree> dont come on line and say " What do I do?:

<Tigger{2}> 100%

<Kree> Tigger I mean a copy of the Dominants license

<astraea^> Queue: - OPEN for questions and comments _

<Kree> if it is important to meet

<Tigger{2}> that is just common sense... even if you have negotiated tough ahead of time and feel like you can trust the person

<Kree> then the dominant should care enough to assure safety

<Kree> soapbox put away....smiles

<Tigger{2}> Kree: I know.. my colorful comment was meant only that if you don't give your safety person useful information, they are much good to you in an emergency

<Kree> True...smiles

Tigger{2} thinks that either no one has any questions, or they are still reading the manifesto

<Tigger{2}> for those that came late:

<Tigger{2}> Go to www.wizard.net/~tigger/subtalk.htm for a copy of tonight's discussion

<Tigger{2}> I know Sumptuous had questions about my use of the word "headspace".... anyone else unclear on that???

<{P}unkity> yes

<Tigger{2}> ok....

<Sumptuous> thankyou Tigger2 i believe you have made some excellent points here this evening..:) and despite the lag ghings have gone wonderfully..:)

<Tigger{2}> a sub lost in headspace...

<Tigger{2}> consider it a type of tunnel-vision

<Tigger{2}> think to how you are when aroused....

<Tigger{2}> the hyper-focus....

<fireNdark> headspace.........or heartspace?? Or both

<Tigger{2}> how your awareness is more or less limited to what is going on only in the six inches next to your body....

<Tigger{2}> fNd: HEAD space.... I won't go into the mixing of emotion with play at the moment :)

<Tigger{2}> this is purely physiological

<fireNdark> ;)

<Tigger{2}> I am talking about the adrenalin high that you get from being made to orgasm.. or brought close and held there ...so that your response to any question is yes, please

<Tigger{2}> I have had the mixed blessing of talking to several women who get far too swept up in it... once you get them wet they only want more

<Tigger{2}> the unfortunate part is that they live so far away :)

<Alexa`> i have a comment/question

<astraea^> Go right ahead, Alexa`, we're in Open Forum now...

<Tigger{2}> Alexa:

fireNdark laughs

<Tigger{2}> Punkity: hope it helped...

<{P}unkity> yes Sir..thank you :)

<Alexa`> for those that are participating in these one off play meets......how are they dealing with the AIDS question.......i would need to be at the DR's office with the DOM when he got his test results........here i believein hearing with my EYES not my EARS...:).....was just wondering how ppl are dealing with this

<Tigger{2}> my point on this is that an unscrupuolus dom will take advantage of a sub's temporary disbility to further his own desires

sherilee has a comment...might sound naive...but I plan on not involving sex in my first Dom/sub meeting....I feel that is the "safest" for me

<Tigger{2}> sherilee: that is appropriate for you...

<Sumptuous> sherilee that is a good choice hon...:) and it does not sounds naive it sounds very smart

<sherilee> thank you Tigger....

<Tigger{2}> all of my d/s play is highly sexual, though...

<Tigger{2}> responding to Alexa: make him bring a copy of his latest test results.. my health care provider puts it in writing... and go over his sexual history since and judge the risk for yourself.... and USE A CONDOM

<slavetoy> Alexa i have always asked to see doucumented proff of a test with a Dr's letterhead

<Tigger{2}> and decide what you consider acceptable risk for oral sex....(where risk of HIV transmission is LOW, but NOT NON-EXISTENT)

<{P}unkity> Tigger made my point for me

<slavetoy> which i confirm

<Tigger{2}> and remember that HIV is not even the least of concerns.. we still have all those wonderful STDs that have existed since time immemorial

<{P}unkity> yea...but HIV is soooo..permanent..ick

<Alexa`> good for you slavetoy!!

<Catty> Re the sex in first meeting questions/statement..: BDSM does not neccessarily involve sex whatsoever, many people go so far as to separate it one thing entirely from another. (I wouldn't do that at all.) But those who would use BDSM in order to get sex

<Catty> are only fooling themselves, and trying to manipulate. Oh yes, the great true dom(mes) will tell their subs "oh yes, you WILL **** me NOW.. that I command you" right, uh huh..

<Sumptuous> who here has had a contract like this made up before a meeting with a Dominate?

<Tigger{2}> frankly though.... my concerns about trust are more immediate that disease safety issues... I'm more conerned that there are immediate physical safety concerns...

<rabbit-> i have never had a contract before hand..just a safeword agreement..

<Tigger{2}> Catty: some do separate... since I am not into pain play, there is nothing for me to play except sex in d/s.... :)

<Sumptuous> slavetoy good thing to do eh? do you bring it up on the phone or at the meeting?

<{P}unkity> and I agree with that...the safety element has often been left for not

<lilhelfyr> safewords never cease either no matter how long you have been with someone

<Sumptuous> would it not be smart to meet someone with other people for the first time like a munchin or a party?

<Catty> Tigger, you mean regarding sensation play in [any aspect] of BDSM?

<slavetoy> yes i am always !!! protective of myself

<slavetoy> we talk alot over before meeting

<Tigger{2}> I think we are focussing too much on traditional safety concerns..which is important, but not really the heart of the matter of my discussion.... I am talking about subs being led down the primrose path by flat out liars....

<slavetoy> i never meet privately

<slavetoy> always in public places

<Tigger{2}> Catty: all my play is arousal-centered.. it is designed to bring about more forceful/enjoyable orgasms in my sub.. nothing else...(but that is just me)

<slavetoy> i always tell my best friends where and with whom i am meeting

lilhelfyr has something to say about safety..first i always get the home and work numbers of the person i am meeting..his home address adn work address..and give it to two people this way if i dont check in they can call...or if the need arises call the police

<Tigger{2}> I was hoping to talk about doms who flirt up several subs simultaneaously and LIE about it to both ...

fireNdark has always made it a point (re:other channel friends) to

meet in a group, party or "bring my mom orspouse" type setting.

<Catty> I guess it depends upon how one defines sex and sexual..

<Sumptuous> hmmm rabbit yea but you also knew your Dom really well right?

<fireNdark> LOL.....too new to include this channel

<Sumptuous> Tigger{2} there is so much more to D/s then just sex and pain...

lilhelfyr agrees with Sumptuous on that

<{P}unkity> Tigger..that is a personality thing u have to deal with..if my Master was being dishonost with me i would cut him loose...i care too much for myself to be lied to

<Sumptuous> cant a Dom and sub meeting for the first time just be like a date? why does it have to be about sex...after all isnt BDSM a relationship?

<Tigger{2}> Sumptuous: for some... I couldn't care less about the mystical aspects of it... "power exchange" etc... I am a sensualist.. for me it is all about arousal...

<Sumptuous> slavetoy where is a public place you would consider meeting?

{P}unkity has her first IRL meet tentatively scheduled...we're gonna go to the opera

<{debbi^}> well..um..some of us are married and it's hard enough to get away for 1 meeting..let alone multiple ones for a 'date' however all of your points are very well taken with ME!

<Tigger{2}> Sumptuous: but that is a discussion for another day... why I don't consider "lifestyle" an appropriate word

<fireNdark> ^5 debbi....."here,here"

{debbi^} grinz at fireNdark

<slavetoy> usually going to resturant or someplace that i know i will be safe

<slavetoy> like a party with friends

<Sumptuous> lilhelfyr it is a good idea to send something to his address too without telling him...like a card or something special so he will let you know when he gets it and you will know his address is vaild also

<slavetoy> my best friends meet them with me

<Tigger{2}> Punkity: I wholeheartedly agree -- cut him loose if he can't be trusted.. but you would be surprised by how many CAN'T do that

<Tigger{2}> that's the kind of behavior I want to encourage in subs...

<lilhelfyr> yes Sumptuous i do that..just to make sure it is real..and for the office number and address i call talk to the receptionist and get the mailing address and street address of the company

{P}unkity blushes

<Sumptuous> hmm sad Tigger2 because there are so many more things to a relationship any relationship for that matter then just sex.

<{P}unkity> I am often perplexed at how many people think that sub=brainless idiot

<Feline^> restuarants are nice, but they can still be giving you a line of crap

<lilhelfyr> my friends still call me at my Master's just to chat and see how i am...that is important

<Sumptuous> we are in open forum now and think that when a couple meets for the first time part of the saftey issue can be that there is not sex involved

<Tigger{2}> Sumptuous: not sad at all.. I agree there are more things to a relationship than sex -- that is why I consider d/s such a small part of life that it cannot be elevated to the level of "LIFESTYLE"

<Sumptuous> Punkity ooh nice the opera!

<slavetoy> i am very assertive and clear on what i will and will not do

{P}unkity grins

<Sumptuous> slavetoy hmm how does the Dom feel about meeting al your friends?

<Feline^> if he doesnt have anything to hide shouldnt matter Sump

<lilhelfyr> absolutely

<Tigger{2}> Punkity, slavetoy -- I guess I would not have worry about your self-identity, then

<Sumptuous> lilhelfyr good idea asking the secretary

<Feline^> first time meetings he should be willing to do what it takes to make you feel safe

<{P}unkity> no kiddin...good idea lilhelfyr..

<fireNdark> I've had the distinct pleasure of meeting friends at their work...watching them. Talk about seeing another side to someone

<lilhelfyr> i also never tell when i have to make the check in call..i will all of a sudden say..i need to check in this way they dont know when it is coming

<Sumptuous> hmmmm i love the BDSM lifestyle myself, that is my opinion i am happy to say...:)

{P}unkity asks if lilhelfyr can dcc her brain over here..good thinkin

<Tigger{2}> Feline: He should be wiling to do whatever it takes to make you feel safe AT EVERY MEETING

lilhelfyr giggles

<Sumptuous> Feline i agree for both parties i would say if were a Domme the conserns would be just as great

<{debbi^}> hehehe lilhelfyr..kinda puts a damper on things when ya gotta say..um..untie me, hon..gotta go make a phone call!! LOL..but again..Point VERY well taken..and I totally appreciate ALL of your input on this

<fireNdark> lolololol

<Feline^> sure it goes both ways

lilhelfyr giggles yes true debbi but..at a first meeting if i dont call at the specified time they call

<Feline^> but you asked what would He think?

<Sumptuous> lilhelfyr makes great sence to that

<Kree> if the dominant is aware that calls will be made at specific times, the scene can and should be planned with those times in mind

<{debbi^}> yup, lil..I agree 100%!

lilhelfyr giggles...i sometimes just ask them to bring the phone to my ear..

<slavetoy> Sump sometimes they don't like it....they say no i tell them in so uncertain terms i will not meet them

<{debbi^}> LOLOL!!!

Tigger{2} would like to ask if anyone has any SPECIFIC exapmles of tough negotiating.... I kinda feel we glossed over that

<slavetoy> the meeting is is about looking for the trust

{P}unkity loves cordless phones

<Sumptuous> good for you slavetoy ..:)

<lilhelfyr> but Kree Sir..if the calls are to be made at specific times and the Dom is aware of it he can also plan for something bad to happen in the interim...

<slavetoy> i call it almost a test

<lilhelfyr> if he is dangerous of course

<Tigger{2}> whe you make the SAFETY CALL you should NOT be in the physical presence of the person....

<{debbi^}> hmm..

<slavetoy> how can i trust someone who will not abide by my limits and fears

<Tigger{2}> you must be AWAY...

<Tigger{2}> where you can run if need be

Sumptuous *giggles*

<lilhelfyr> i disagree Tigger they should be made with the person there and away..two calls should be made

{P}unkity is sooo new to all this..im glad i stopped by

lilhelfyr has a special code word that she uses when she is calling in front of the dom..no one would ever suspect she is in danger but her friends she is on the phone with

<Tigger{2}> lilhelfyre: fine.. two calls.. but that last one must be AWAY from the person

<{debbi^}> me too, punkity!!!!!

<fireNdark> your "safe person" should know to expect a second call from you

{P}unkity is waitin for that dcc lilhelfyr

lilhelfyr smiles but my brain is so small honey i would be left without one..

< font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"><Kree> lilhef if there are multiple calls, there is less chance of a problem......but lets be real here...I dont want to throw cold water on the aspects of yahoooooooooo there is gonna be ropes and sex and cum......but there can also be serious injury....both mental and physical

<slavetoy> i always trust my gut feelings tooo they never lie

<Tigger{2}> and the dom MUST know ahead of time that you are expected to be away from him after a set period of time.. not to exceed 18 hours.... :)

{P}unkity just replaces the hamster on occasion

<rabbit> even trusting...setting up saftey nets....negotiating...none of this will ensure an independent identity for the sub if they dont have the self esteem to care enough about themselves to stop any harmful action

<Sumptuous> okay so what would the safe person say when they call the police if something was wrong exactly?

lilhelfyr agrees with slavetoy..gut instincts

<slavetoy> i have never been wrong when i trust my gut...i mean never ...

<Tigger{2}> Sumptuous: the whole thing -- That there is a man with a woman tied up against her will.... at such and such a location

<slavetoy> lesson hard learned

{P}unkity refers back to sub does not equal brainless idiot

<lilhelfyr> well they could just say i just received an emergency call from so and so..and she is in trouble physically

<fireNdark> LOL, I see where this is going Sumptuous, it's not like "onliners" in general don't have a bad enough reputation

<Kree> Hello police There is something bad happening at room 112 at the Holiday Inn on whip lane get there quickly

<Tigger{2}> fNd: reputations be damned when someone is in trouble

<{debbi^}> whip lane? LOL

<Sumptuous> Tigger2 do you really think the cops would take it seriously if she went over there willingly....this is a big consern for me

<Sumptuous> okay Kree that make sence Sir

<fireNdark> I agree Tigger, but we have gotten a bad rep. since day 1

<rabbit> the cops will always take it seriously...its the DA that migth not later....but stopping harm and pressing charges are two different things

<Tigger{2}> sorry folks.. but there are TOO many people online with more than just a few screws loose to say that it doesn't happen

<Tigger{2}> <-- case in point :)

<Sumptuous> yea i mean if the cops ask "how do you know this is going on"?

<Kree> hang up

<Tigger{2}> Sumptuous: if you tell them that your friend went to meet a man, but he turned out to be dangerous and that now she is in real physical danger -- yes, I think they would listen

<fireNdark> I think we've come up with a topic for another night

<lilhelfyr> then the friend will explain the code word to them and what it means..the cops will then understand

<Sumptuous> rabbit good point

<Kree> Sump if you hang up and call back....then try to explain to the second dispatcher

<Sumptuous> i know i called the cops because my neighbour was beating his wife and the cops took 45 to get there....they wait until the domestic dispute is over before they show up, because they dont want to deal with it

<Tigger{2}> Nobody wants to tackle "TOUGH NEGOTIATING" ??? or did we cover it enough?

<Sumptuous> fireNdark message me the topic will ya please?

<fireNdark> ;) Sumptuous

<{P}unkity> i think lilhelfyr has the tough negotiating skills down..and has educated me as well

<fireNdark> RE: tough negotiating, Tigger......what kind of examples can you bring us?

lilhelfyr smiles any help i can give i will gladly help

<{P}unkity> thank you..

<Sumptuous> who would want to bother with someone who was a really tough negotiator? i mean why would you want to submit to someone who is giving you a hard time even before you meet them?

<{P}unkity> this is my first IRL experimentin with this relationship...that is why im using IRC first

<Tigger{2}> fNd: getting a frank discussion of their sexual history... or of their d/s preferences

<Kree> Food for thought for Dominants....this safe call can cover YOUR ass too ....we have a channel member who has a close friend that had a r/l meeting for a second time with a submissive....she asked for his collar....he did not collar ....she called the police, showed the bruises, they arrested him, and he is having to pay to have his record expunged..this is a double edged sword!

<Tigger{2}> and being able to judge by the quality of their answer if they a re being honest

<lilhelfyr> whoa Kree agreed can happen on both sides your right

<Sumptuous> wow Kree

{P}unkity agrees..and scribblin notes

<lilhelfyr> anyone can bullshit Tigger...people on here watch and learn they know the right things to say and not to say...it is a tough call always

<Tigger{2}> Kree: doms should not play with headcases either :)

<Sumptuous> oh oh splits are back again?

<Sumptuous> well everyone it is 10:00pm

<Kree> heh heh Tigger....define a headcase? tht is like defining "normal"

<fireNdark> ....always

<fireNdark> brings to mind that "gut" thing again

<Tigger{2}> lilhelfyr: but so many here EXCUSE bullshit... they say, "He is just stressed..." or "He's had a rough life..." THEY excuse doms who pull shit on their subs as if it were their right o lie and cheat

<lilhelfyr> absolutely Tigger but just getting the right answer to a question is not a good judgment of character either for a sub or a Dom...hell someone who just watches for a few days can answer any question and be good at it

<sherilee> thanks all..very informative! as always!

<Tigger{2}> well.. one or two questions is not enough... agreed

<slavetoy> thank you Sump you have done a great job

<Tigger{2}> but hesitency and unwillingness to answer them in the first place should be a good indicator

<lilhelfyr> absolutely agreed

Sumptuous would like to thank everyone for coming tonight and sharing in our topic, a special thanks to our speaker Tigger{2} and everyone who has helped make tonight so memorable. Next weeks guest speaker is MasterCL, we hope to see you here again very soon...:) You are free to stay and visit further if you wish, but officially the discussion is now over.