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BDSM
and Its Relationship to Self Esteem (In Two Parts) Part 2 **************************************************************************** NOTE: THE CONTENTS OF THIS LOG ARE COPYRIGHTED AND THE PROPERTY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THEM. YOU MAY GIVE COPIES TO YOUR FRIENDS, BUT YOU MAY NOT REPUBLISH THIS PIECE IN WHOLE OR IN PART ANYWHERE WITHOUT PERMISSION. If you have any questions about what constitutes fair use and what is an illegal violation of copyright, see http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html for some clarification before you publish *anything* that you personally did not write or that you do not know for a fact the original author has given you permission to use. Hint: it's illegal. Also it's really, really rude, and a good way to get yourself a very bad name as a ripoff artist in the BDSM community. Please don't do it. Thanks. Asking permission to republish something is easy, and we probably won't say no if it's being used for good, educational reasons that are nonprofit and benefit everybody. But you really do have to ask - stealing is wrong as well as an illegal violation of copyright, and it really discourages people from sharing freely in the future if they get ripped off when they do. Copyright violation can also get you in some serious trouble with your ISP. Thanks for respecting your fellow BDSM community members, and please don't forget to ask permission if you want to republish anything you find in this log! *************************************************************************** Strider|: It's the old argument between the purists and assimilationists....I prefer the latter, since I don't consider anyone *pure* <G> sevoo: Huh. I suppose I was worrying more about the CHuDWahs, but you've got a point. sassysub: queu.....mena, Morrak....closed after Morrak Tan1thT: I think there is a happy medium that we can hit somewhere along the road, neither becoming cliqueish and excluding nor endorsing wholesale careless heavy S&M by the masses. ;) I'm sure more folks will come along with comments on this topic. :) Next? sassysub: mena, GA pls mena-: actually let Morrak go ahead i think i have my q answered=) sassysub: Morrak, GA pls Sir Morrak: well i was a devout christian for man years... i had always thought that ppl involved in BDSM mainly S&M were typicly witches and such...i was terribly wrong... i think it is blown out of proportin in large ways so that children are brought up to believe that a anilla way of life is crucial to their credibility and believability...i never klooked at is as an alternative lifestyle... i always saw it as something that i shouldnt attempt...now that i am learning mroe about it and working on it with mena... i see it in a ne wlight and quite frankly am very open about it to ppl who ask... Tan1thT chuckles. Well, I'm Wiccan. Morrak: even those that are vanilla, ill answer them with utter sincerity... i find most are more inquisitve than NEthing... never condemning... Elektra: even irc servers are screwed up in Wash. DC isa-owned: you are Tan1th? Morrak: im done... :) Tan1thT: Well, people of many religions may practice BDSM, though certainly the more earthy, healthy, hearty and whole earth religions that celebrate the body encourage it more. isa-owned: Morrak...are you still a Christian? Morrak: i do not consider myself one... though i believe in god and jesus and their counterpart, i no longer follow the "righteous" path... isa-owned: wow Morrak....we gotta talk!!!! Elektra: that's why you type God without a capital Morrak? :)))) sassysub: Morrak, living in the bible belt,,,i understand COMPLETELY Tan1thT: If folks
like, there is a long essay about the subject of Old Guard and New Guard
I just sent to Morrak. Do folks want to see it? It is not strictly on
topic, but please message sassysub with yes if you want to see it and
she'll let me know . In the old days, there was a lot of closeting and cliquishness, and it took serious and sincere effort to get into the hidden world of leather and the SM lifestyle. You had to get to know someone, take time to impress them and convince them to "bring you out" in the lifestyle. It wasn't easy to be accepted or even to find this world; you had to pay your dues and do your time before you got inside. And you had to know the rules. There were a lot of them - dress codes that meant some very specific things, things you said and did and things you never said and did. Some of it made sense; some of it was arbitrary. If the person who "brought you out" taught you well, and you learned well, it brought honor on both of you. If you fucked up, you lost face, and so did your mentor. So it was always a risk , introducing somebody to the community. Learning wasn't easy. There were no books, no safety manuals, and no public organizations that put on lectures, classes or workshops. You picked up techniques as best you could, hopefully from a practiced mentor who could teach you what he or she knew - usually from the bottom up. At the end of your apprenticeship, you would be fit to wear the leathers of a top - but not before you had earned your intimate understanding of what that leather felt like from the other end, and the subtlest nuances of the effect your actions could have on another human body. Toys were hard to find. You made your own, or paid a skilled craftsman or craftswoman to forge you a flogger of the finest leather, cut to fit your swing and your stride. Military shackles were popular, and if you could get quality police-issue handcuffs, that was something. Good toys were a mark of the serious top; they represented an investment of not only money, but your personal time and dedication. There is a lot to be said about both the honor and the harshness of the old system. I salute the older members of our community who made it through this time of standing together as a tribe of leatherfolk against a world which condemned them, as well as the younger generation which is carrying some of those traditions on today. The Old Guard are rarer today - or are they? Many of the old rules have been adapted to the more modern sensibilities of a world which is no longer - quite - as unwelcoming of us as it once was. I believe we have both gained and lost by the change. In the city of San Francisco, where the leather knights and drag queen Ladies ride proudly on metal and chrome steeds, the Gay and leather communities own the streets. The old rules don't seem to apply any more, not when you can take your leashed slave for a walk down the Castro and barely rate a second glance. Why secrecy, now? Why hide in cliques and gather in the darkness of half-hidden back rooms of bars, when you can march down the street in pride in your leathers? So many of us have chosen to come out into the sunlight and speak openly of what it is we do, share our hard-earned knowledge freely with anyone who is seeking. It is easy to find leather now, and the knowledge of how to safely tie up and whip your lover. If you grew up feeling isolated and confused about your different sexual orientation, you can find supportive help and advice in the BDSM community much more easily now that you might have in decades past. And yes, I believe that this is a good thing. Our rights are being recognized. The fight isn't over, not by a long shot, and there will be both victories and defeats along the way. But the point is that we're fighting, and we're marching in the streets, and we're out there in the courts of law demanding our rights to do with our bodies what we choose. The leather lifestyle isn't secret any more, and they can't just quietly put us in jail for practicing consensual S&M, not without a hell of a fight and attention being drawn to the human rights issues around our lifestyle. This is what we have gained by coming out into the light - the beginnings of recognition for our rights to live our lifestyle without being jailed or persecuted, and lives saved through openly available safety information and community support. And this is what we have lost. Leather is easy; anyone with a phone book and a credit card can find the local kink shop and buy any piece of equipment they like. Floggers, canes, collars, corsets, hanging stocks and cages of leather and metal all compete for display space in San Francisco windows, and their possession denotes mainly the fact that you have money to spend. The signs aren't the same any more; the hanky code still works in some bars, but leather doesn't mean a thing. And this is what else we've lost: the old sense of closeness and the tightly knit culture that comes from the sure knowledge that we were all initiates, we had all passed through our personal set of ordeals to earn our leathers fair and square. Not everyone you meet at leather events these days is in the lifestyle; there are a lot of dabblers, swingers, occasional players, onlookers and the idly curious at our doorstep these days, and they show up in droves at our gatherings. In fact, they massively outnumber the full-time lifestylers. Again, it is debatable as to whether this is a good or bad thing. The "Old Guard" Wiccan/Pagan community has undergone a remarkably parallel situation with the "New Age" would-be seekers, and many of the long-time Wiccan community members and second-generation fam-trad folks have been eyeing the New Agers and "wannabes" with an extremely jaundiced eye. My succint comment at one Wiccan council in Los Angeles was this. "Would you rather that they be *playing* Witches, or *burning* Witches?" A fair number of even the grumpiest old-timers conceded. Yep, I'd rather the idle hobbyists be playing with S&M than busily condemning us, and I for one am cheerfully ready to encourage anyone who has a vague desire to go *right* ahead and wear all the leather clothes they want and play with ropes and floggers all they want, hopefully after attending some good classes on same and/or studying some good safety manuals. Does that make me a traitor to the Old Guard? Possibly, but by choosing to be open and inclusive rather than cliquish and closeted, I feel strongly that I am making an investment in my future, and in the future of the BDSM community as a whole. I would rather that more people have at least some level of understanding of who we are and what it is we do, even if it means our status symbols are no longer purely exclusive. I consider it a very fair trade-off, especially considering that the market for S&M toys and fetish gear supports many lifestylers who make their living as craftspeople or in professional clubs and dungeons. And in the ongoing fight for our rights as leather lifestylers to live and love as we choose, we need all the sympathetic allies we can get - even if they aren't all going to commit to living our lifestyle full time. I believe there is certainly a difference between "Old Guard" and "New Leather", as well as a lot of people whose beliefs and philosophies and backgrounds put them somewhere in between that defies labelling . I am not really eager to judge which culture is necessarily better than the other. It seems unneccessarily cliqueish when old-timers in the BDSM community grumble about all the newbies who just want to participate casually. I believe that newbies should be encouraged to learn as much as they can and participate at the level they are comfortable with. Telling them that they have to devote their whole lives to the leather community or they can't play at all seems senseless, and it loses us potentially valuable support on issues that deeply affect our community. Whether continuing to follow the old customs blindly is still good for our community as a whole, I seriously doubt. For good or for bad, this world has changed, and if we are to survive as a community, we need to adapt and change with it. I for one want us to survive as a community, and I do see a real impetus for necessary changes in our culture. Personally, I think labels only go so far - we are all the BDSM community, and we have a lot to share together, no matter who we are or what we call ourselves. mena-: Tan1thT do you feel that public Humiliation or private Humiliation can lead cause to poor self esteem...or just apart of the lifestyle? if maybe not thought out properly Morrak: no Elek... i type it without a cap g because thats the way i typwe... look at all my "i's"... :) mena-: or is it thought out? Tan1thT nods at mena.
Well, let's see. ;) The possibility (even probability) exists for verbal abuse and humiliation to cause long term psychological damage if the negative expressions are internalized consistently with an unhealthy self-image. The key here is how the individual who is on the recieving end of this psychological edgeplay percieves and internalizes the situation. These facts are concurred to among professionals in the mental health community. An individual with strong codependent tendencies who is verbally abused, especially by a spouse, close friend, lover or co-worker may internalize and accept the negative expressions as valid judgements of hir self worth. Such an individual should probably not engage in psychological edgeplay such as humiliation or verbal degradation, as sie is not healthy or strong enough to participate without great risk of harm or damage. An individual who is not codependent and who has a strong and well developed sense of self worth and self esteem is more likely to react to verbal abuse from anyone, regardless of their level of intimacy or believability, with consistent internal rejection - *even if the experience is deliberately sought out and eroticized*. The negative expressions are not internalized and are not consistent with hir self image. The emotionally stable individual is not likely to suffer any significant alteration to hir psyche as a result of such experiences. Such an individual is a good candidate to participate harmlessly in fantasy roleplaying games which may involve elements of humiliation or verbal harshness. Sie understands at a core emotional level that even if sie is called harsh names as part of playing out a fantasy role or to emphasize an eroticized power imbalance, these names do not reflect on hir personal worth in reality as a human being. No harm or damage occurs; the game or role is played out to its conclusion with no long term effects. Tan1thT: Does that adequately answer your question, mena? mena- tries to speed read=) Tan1thT: While you're reading....a request to those on channel. This is a community public service kinda thingie, and I don't mind helping out with what information I can. I do mind if people republish my stuff without asking or crediting me. :(So please just don't do it, OK? Ask. :) mena-: well what if the Dom does one thing and it really stays with the sub...in terms of humiliation....should he apologize for his action? Or explain its for disciplinary reasons if thats the case...and not need to apologize? something that brings her down self esteem wise Tan1thT: I think that would depend a lot on the individual couple. mena- nods Tan1thT: The idea of BDSM is it is supposed to hurt - but it is NOT supposed to harm. sassysub: queu....Elektra, Rander-ka, TheKttN mena-: right =) Tan1thT: A punishment hurts, but if it harms, you are committing abuse, not BDSM. :/ mena-: agreed thanks=) sassysub: ready for the next? Tan1thT: I'm sending a file now about the difference between hurt and harm that I consider very important. Hold a bit. :) MatureDom: Tan1th your comment is very accurate and is really the cornerstone of Wiseman's book. Tan1thT: Morrak, could you paste the document "harm"? ziyena agrees with MatureDom Tan1thT: Jay's a buddy. Nice guy, works hard for the community.Jay offers First Aid and CPR classes to the BDSM community at his cost for materials. A very worthy endeavor. sevoo: (and he's
kinda cute, too) To hurt someone means to cause them temporary pain which goes away after a reasonably short duration without any outside intervention. In other words, the bruise or redness fades, the bleeding stops, the tears dry up, the marks and effects of the hurt go away and the person returns to their former state of physical and emotional health, whatever that state might be, with the help of no more than a Band-Aid and some Neosporin if necessary. To harm someone means to cause them damage that seriously needs the intervention of an outside professional to heal, ie, you need more than a Band-Aid and Betadine. A doctor needs to tend your injury, or an outside counsellor is needed to put your head back together. Psychological "damage" can be harder to quantify, but it can certainly be inflicted in the boundaries of a relationship - whether that relationship is SM or not. Some borderline activities between hurt and harm include permanent marks, scars, tattoos, brands, etc, which are of long term duration and which do not go away. Generally, if the person who has been permanently marked actively consented to the mark, it isn't considered harm. If the person wasn't expecting to be permanently marked or scarred and it's done to them anyways, it's generally considered to be harm. Tan1thT: Anyhow, it is not always possible for a dom to know for sure whether a punishment will hurt or harm. He or she is not psychic!So don't go yelling abuse if your dom accidentally hit a bad button and triggered an emotional trauma point that harmed you. ;) Only if it's consistent and he doesn't provide aftercare. ;) You are responsible in large measure for KNOWING what will hurt or harm you, knowing the difference, knowing it is different for different people, and communicating. ;) sassysub: Elektra, GA pls Elektra: It appears there are more points of disagreement between us than otherwise, Tan1th, however I do think your presentation is extremely thought provoking and just wanted to thank you for it Tan1thT: Input from different viewpoints is good...I'm listening, Elektra. Elektra: Very nice job, Tan1th, Thank you Tan1thT: Okay. I'm not God, or the One True BDSM Guru, Grand High Poobah-ette Of The Universe, etc...eye suspiciously anyone who sez they are. ;) I do try hard to research my facts from good sources, checking with professionals in mental and medical health fields, etc. ;) its^me: thank you
Tan1thT, and Ops for a great discussion....bye all sassysub: TheKttN, pls GA sevoo giggles. Do
you eye me suspiciously when I say you're *one* of the high grand poobahs,
Tan1th? TheKttN: okay this is in two parts, but both about aftercare TheKttN: my question is about aftercare. how does one go about giving it. i talked to a submissive the other night and she had just rescued another submissive from a mentally (mostly) and physically (which made her leave finally) abusive relationship. What should she know? and what on a different side, i would like to know what kind of aftercare should come after punishment, especially if self esteem is hurt? MatureDom: reassurance, affection, these are elements would they not be? sassysub: sounds like winnie the pooh to me Tan1thT: Punishment is a serious issue in a BDSM relationship. It means that the dom accepts responsibility for the submissive's decisions, and ultimately her sense of what is right. mena- looks to her Master thinking about that song she emailed to him with tiggers theme=) Tan1thT: I think that a good, reasonably healthy punishment leaves the submissive understanding that this was a wrong act, but sie is still a loved person. MatureDom: Tan1th that is what I was mentioning. Tan1thT: It is not
unlike what a parent might do to an erring child, or a trainer to an animal.
BDSM doesn't invalidate normal human behavioral rules. ;) sassysub: the queu is CLOSED now...after mena speaks we will have an open discussion then beddy bye time for us mena-: Tan1thT how do you recomend telling a parent or other outside person that your into BDSM and that how you and your mate act is not abuse or anything of the kind but this lifestyle you have chosen? Tan1thT: mena, I think that it helps some people to have clinical, scientific references, scholarly works that portray us in an accurate and believable light. It helps others to be more low key. "Oh, we like a little rough sex. Sometimes it's fun to be tied up. We play games." mena-: my father might see me and Morrak rl...and think hes just a controlling jerk....and behind the scene its something we have chosen to be together in this lifestyle=) Tan1thT: It depends on w hat you feel is right for you. Some people can't handle it at all, and you need to make that assessment as best you can. Tan1thT: If you explain in simple words that you get something good and positive out of the relationship, and if you felt abused you would leave, it might help. mena- smiles and nods=) mena-: thankyou very helpful=) Morrak nods... i do not want either her father nor my parents to think im a freak... but ill be honest how i feel about it... and make sure they know i do it from love and respect of mena... Tan1thT: There is
a document I'd like to pass around....I'll pass it to Morrak, and he can
give it to folks who want it. It is about how to tell abuse from SM, the
clinical signs. 2. 'Life Would be so Good If': You frequently think that your relationship would be perfect if not for his or her emotional storms. The storms seem to be coming more and more frequently. Between times, life is wonderful, but when a storm is coming you can often tell by that 'Walking on Eggs Feeling'. 3. 'That Walking On Eggs Feeling': You feel at times that any action on your part will cause your partner to erupt into anger. You try to do everything you can think of to avoid it, but the longer the feeling goes on, the more likely the blowup will happen, no matter what you do. 4. 'I Can't Stand You, But You Better Not Leave': Your partner keeps telling you that you aren't worth having a relationship with, but will not consider breaking off the relationship. Acts more outrageously when he or she finds out you are attempting to leave the relationship. 5. 'So Much, So Fast': Your partner just met you and doesn't know much about you, but he or she has to have you, so you must commit now. 6. 'It's You That's the Problem': Your partner never seems to consider his or her own part in your domestic disputes. You get blamed for all problems because of the most ridiculous things. 7. 'This Happened to Me and It's All Your Fault': You are blamed for your partners problems even when it was his or her responsibility to not make mistakes. This could be things like him or her not getting to work on time and getting in trouble, not getting a job, not paying the bills in a timely manner, etc. 8. 'It's Their Fault': Your partner is never the cause of his own problems, if it's not your fault, it was somebody else's. 9. 'Overreacting': Your partner way overreacts to little irritations. Small offenses like leaving the cap off the toothpaste cause him or her to have huge anger scenes or act out in an outrageous manner. 10. 'I Will Get You for That': Your partner doesn't try to negotiate a better relationship, but retaliates by doing something to you that he or she knows will hurt you emotionally. 11. 'All the Fights are about What I Do Wrong': You never seem to be able to talk about his or her wrong actions, the discussion seems to always be about what you did wrong and there seems to be always something new that you did wrong. 12. 'You are Worthless': Your partner keeps telling you that all your problems are because you can't manage to do anything right. 13. 'Unrealistic Expectations': Your partner is dependent on you for all his/her needs and expects you to be the perfect mate, lover and friend. You are expected to meet all of his/her needs. 14. 'Blames Others for His/Her Feelings': You are told, "You make me mad," "you're hurting me by not doing what I ask,: or "I can't help being angry". 15. 'Intense Jealousy': Your partner tells you that expressing jealousy is a sign of love, jealousy is a sign of insecurity not love. You are questioned about who you talk to and you may frequently receive calls or unexpected visits during the day. 16. 'Isolation':
He or She have attempted to cut off your family, friends, and independent
financial resources. Your friends and family are put down and you are
put down for socializing with them. You or they are accused of ridiculous
motives. Aggressive behavior
is characterized by: Assertive behavior
is characterized by: References: Family
Advocacy handout Tan1thT:
Morrak, I think that is the key...love and respect. What you do in bed,
or in your chosen lifestyle, is detail that they don't need. Do vanilla
couples tell their parents about their intimate details? Morrak smiles... some do... hehe... sassysub: *i* don't....oh
sheesh....and when mother tells me hers.....*BLECH* sassysub: okie.....open discussion folks :o)) kethry: I am sorry to have to leave.. i have thoughly loved this discussion and learned alot.. thanks :) kethry: Thank you Tan1thT :) kethry curtseys to the room before leaving :) mew-: *speaks softly* i have a question, regarding a r'ship i was in a few years back. Tan1thT: Oops, we never shared Elaine's story....Morrak, did you paste it? Strider|: I believe that self-esteem begins with all of us, not just submissives. We are *not* wrong, simply different. sassysub: mew...pls go ahead joyful`: i would like to hear it, please.. mew-: i had very little experience, and my dom had a great deal of it; thus, i let him control where we went more than i would today. in the end, i was rather hurt, and felt like i had little self esteem left.. [a bit more] Tan1thT: Very often, new submissives have problems with setting their boundaries, and don't understand that they are allowed to have any. So they don't communicate well that they are being harmed rather than just hurt. mew-: what i'm wondering is, do people feel that part of showing "love and respect" from a dom is to take a sub's requests, desires, etc. into account when planning activities, esp if the sub has less experience? or should it be entirely up to the dom? Tan1thT: If something pushes you past hurt and into harm (long term damage), you definitely need to know about it and communicate about it. I'd say it was, but that may depend on the couple. mena-: i had the same experience mew....a Dom i first had was always telling me i had to do this and i had to do that...things i was embarssed to do he pushed me to do...he wanted me to drop my whole rl and just be his totally as a slave and i wasnt ready for that thus making him grind on me harder about things my self esteem was ----- lil claudia{A: Tan1th, I'd like to hear the story ... and mew, my Master *always* makes sure I am pleased with what is happening. mew-: i'd liek to hear the story too, btw. mew-: and thanks for the responses. ^thumper: Tan1thT What do you mean when you use the word vanilla? Tan1thT: thumper:
not-SM, heterosexual, "normal". ;) My name is elaine. i recently stepped out of a power exchange because i felt it was more abusive than loving. It took a physical anxiety attack for me to realize that my Master's style of domination was not suitable for my pscyhe. He "Mind fucked" me, whipped me (which i did not mind) and left me alone for weeks to contemplate it (this prompted the anxiety attack). i have deep rooted issues about shame, isolation and abandonment (of which i told him i needed to discuss but we never did). i decided that my mental and emotional health were more important than continuing to please him by staying in isolation. i refuse to maintain the label of a "victim" here. i chose to leap into this power exchange. i chose to step outside of the BDSM guidelines for safety. i chose to let him take control before he new all about me, my history. i took great risks to be in this power exchange. i did so because i was incredibly hungry. i finally found something that fed my hunger after a lifetime of starvation. Was my self esteem so low, however, that i didn't value "me" enough to establish my needs as important as he did his? Maybe. i have struggled with self esteem and self- acceptance all my life. i've also spent my life teaching others how to tap into their self-esteem, how to lift themselves up out of adversity and despair. i know i have the power somewhere inside of me to do so for myself. i guess the moment i stepped out of the exchange was the moment i tapped into that esteem that lives inside of me. i know i have the power somewhere inside of me to do so for myself. i guess the moment i stepped out of the exchange was the moment i tapped into that esteem that lives inside of me. Tan1thT: Sound familiar, mew? mena- thinks it does in her early years with the lifestyle Tan1thT smiles a
little sadly. Those of you who have stories are *not* alone. There are
so many of them, and so alike. And yet so different and unique, in their
own ways. In some you can see sadness, and in others growth and change
and strengthening, learning how to express our sexuality, submission and
dominance in healthy ways that might hurt but never harm. I have been submissive in nature for a very long time, however, my experience in D/s and bdsm are limited. I have been with my Master for many months and i could really use some advice from somone who has experience and might be able to help me. I really want to please my Master. Everything He has asked for i have given freely. It seems, though, that no matter how hard i try or how much i give to Him, i cannot seem to make Him happy. I don't know what i am doing wrong and i feel as if i will never get it right. He tells me that i'm not really submissive, but i try so hard and i want to learn. I just seem to be getting nowhere fast. Sometimes i feel as if He is very angry, but i don't think He is really angry with me. I try to be there for Him with all His troubles and all i can think to do is try harder to make Him happy. What am i doing wrong? How can i become the submissive He wants me to be so that He will be happy? I'm so desperate to make things better, but i'm so tired. This is starting to affect my life off irc too, and i feel very out of control. I've spent quite a bit of money so that we can be together and more time than i should here on irc. My family is starting to ask questions, wondering if i'm okay. So, please, if you can give me some advice so that i can get this right, i would appreciate it. I need your help Tan1thT: This story should sound very familiar by now, if you've read the documents on the difference between abuse and BDSM. Nobody's story has some of the classic hallmarks of where the differences are, and sadly, I think she's on the wrong side. No one can really judge another person's relationship without a lot more information than a long distance missive, but my first and worst feeling here is that what is going on here is codependence, not healthy BDSM. mew-: *nod* way too much... my dom would say things like "well, you got aroused.. you liked it, right?" and i couldn't explain to him that the idea of me saying i "liked" something was in some ways horrifying to me! that yes, my body responded to things, but that saying i "liked" them was beyond me, *at that time*. it was all too new and too fast. joyful` considers the conversation.. it's so close to home.. Tan1thT: Some submissives end up with the opposite problem, topping from the bottom. ;) mew-: so now i'm trying to quietly re-approach the subject, very slowly, with a friend who i've known for years. we'll see how it goes. *smile* anyway, thanks, much. sevoo laughs. I love doing things I hate, and at least most of the time, I'll admit it. Tan1thT: Or at least being told they're doing it if they dare to express limits. There is a line between healthy negotiation of limits and needs and demanding. Tan1thT: "I want you to spank me ten times on the left butt cheek, but not too hard, and dress in high heels and stockings while doing it....Mistress." Tan1thT chuckles. I'd put that on the scale of "way too demanding, topping from the bottom". mew-: *giggle* sevoo: But then, I'm a switch, so part of it is remembering how much I like it when my chewtoy submits to something that's hard for him. Thanks for a wonderful evening, Tan1th & moderators and all. sassysub: thank-you for coming, sevoo :o) Tan1thT: Expressing your limits honestly like this - "I was slapped in the face nonconsensually as a child, and it is a hard trigger point of abuse for me. If you want to trigger all those feelings, I suppose you can, but be ready to deal with it." One of the ways "total" submission can actually work is intensive communication like this. soraya takes notes ;) Tan1thT: A lot of people have the illusion that you can enter a total ownership relationship just by saying "yes, I consent". It's harder work that that. Morrak: oh i agree wholeheartedly Tan1thT... communication 24/7 is a must for a true lifestyle... communication and trust... everything can be built from that foundation... Tan1thT chuckles. The more power and responsibility the dom has over the sub, the more detailed information sie needs to have on where the buttons are. If the total responsibility is handed over to the dom, sie needs LOTS of data. They aren't just words to repeat, communication and trust. They are your work cut out for you. ;) soraya: sure are.....I never really expressed any limits in advance....just discussed afterwards whether I liked activiy X or not or might not wish to repeat Tan1thT: soraya: experimentation can work, but it can also hit bad buttons. soraya: yes and I could never tell him to stop no matter how much he might have wished I actually would mew-: soraya- well, if you don't know what you do or don't like yet.. then expressing limits is difficult, right? soraya: yes, mew Tan1thT: BTW, shall I shut up and let open discussion ensue, or go on to the next topic - abusing from the bottom, self esteem from the top? ;) sassysub: perhaps w/the time, Tan1th, we can do another discussion in the near future? claudia{A: I came from a vanilla relationship where my slightest whim was immediately granted .. hated it .. so I wouldn't tell my Master anything for a long time because I didn't trust him to do what he wanted. Now I tell him :) soraya: plus I like to feel that I am totally in his care....just have to be better about offering up info :) Tan1thT can go either way, depends on what people want. :) Tan1thT listens for input either way. :) TheKttN: mew, we are begging Tan1th for further discussions:) claudia{A: i can stay for a couple more hours, am on pacific time here :) soraya: I am interested in the next topic :) Strider|: <laughing> *Don't* say that around me, friend Tan1th! deidre: Thanks Tan1th, moderators and all for your thoughtful discussion. I enjoyed my first evening visiting with you all. mew-: *nods* i'd be interested in -future- discussions. :) Tan1thT does switch, Strider. That's no secret. I just don't bother discussing what I do in bed a lot, if people don't ask. ;) LordSable heads off for bed...thank you all for the discussionand for the many thoughts and ideas afkLazaru: LOL yes please Tan1th continue on that at least sassysub smiles and thanks all for coming tonight....we hope you come again soon ! Tan1thT is hearing that at least some folks want to continue. For folks wanting to chat, #submission's open, isn't it? sassysub: oh man...i sounded like a hostess at Shoneys ProvokeMe thinks sassy added up his check wrong... : P claudia{A: lol sassy Tan1thT: OK, I'll throw something fun at a channel about the way a dominant should act. ;) TheKttN: yes it is open:) sassysub thinks PM
is hiding his change Some folks have this
image of dominants as people who always go around dressed in black leather,
verbally abusing and haranguing everybody from store clerks to unsuspecting
postal carriers to their next-door neighbors. While I do know a few folks
who really act this way (and they're mostly male tops, chuckle), I don't
know any folks who act this way who I would consider a responsible and
in-control adult, let alone a dominant. Tan1thT: Copyrights aside, please feel free to grab and paste that onto a channel if some rude SOB is bothering you to defer to him because you happen to be a sub. ;) soraya: hehehe mena- has a lil hw to do thankyou Tan1thT for the great advice and talks=) claudia{A: :) thanks Tan1th Tan1thT listens for comments on the subject of rudenik "doms". ;) soraya: Hell, I have a bunch of them but they are not worth the bandwidth :) sassysub: hmmm....i might comment on REDneck doms *giggle* since i'm from alabama Tan1thT grins. You might be a redneck dom if there are treads in your paddle. Morrak: lol... claudia{A: lol Tan1thT: You might be a redneck femdom if the ceiling fan decapitates your hairdo. cfish{V}: rofl Morrak: rotfl... ProvokeMe: lololol soraya bites lips and SMILES sassysub: LOLOL Tan1thT: You might be a redneck sub if you can't figure out whether to call her "Mistress" or "Sis". cfish{V}: hahahahahaha ProvokeMe: oh man... LOL cfish{V}: well good night all :) Thank you very much Tan1th :) and thanks sassy and PM for workin so hard ;) Tan1thT: You might be a redneck BDSM'r if you order crotchless overalls from "Fredrick's of Alabama". sassysub smoochies da fishielips******~~~~~~~ sassysub: AHEM sassysub: we have a Fredericks of ALABAMA now???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY told ME ProvokeMe: thats Alabammer LLazarus: LOL Tan1thT quits with the bad jokes and will u/l the "top abuse" stuff if folks want now. LLazarus: Gimme please claudia{A: yes please
Tan1th :) It is very possible to abuse and eventually burn out your top, and it will almost inevitably lead to the dissolution of a relationship if you are not considerate of your dominant/top partner's emotional needs because you are pushing too hard to satisfy your own. Some dominants/tops
find that they enjoy "punishment" scenes, where they must maintain their
authority forcefully in the face of rebellion. Others seldom or never
want to spend their time and energy "forcing" an unruly submissive to
obey them if loyalty and trust are not given willingly and freely. It
can be physically and emotionally exhausting to maintain your authority
as a dominant/top in the face of constant rebellion and challenge, and
the majority of the people I know in the scene simply aren't willing to
play that way for any length of time, and certainly not in a relationship
with their primary partner. Dominant
Burnout There is a well-known phenomenon in the BDSM community which has been called "burnout" or "dom burnout". In some situations, one partner (or one person with multiple partners) must constantly function as the strong and dominant individual, may take physical and/or emotional responsibility for the well being of their partner(s), and is always the nurturer and caregiver hirself. If this person has no balancing factors in hir life and nowhere that sie feels that sie is able to relax and recieve care and nurturing hirself, it can easily lead to "dom burnout". Practicing BDSM does not excuse anyone from practicing normal consideration and care for your partner in a relationship, no matter what gender or sexual/BDSM orientation you are. I wish I could double-bold emphasize these words and shout them from the rooftops, because I have seen more relationships destroyed in my community for lack of this understanding. The negotiated rules of a BDSM relationship do not replace the normal standards of mutual caring and respect and compassion that exist in any primary love relationship; they stand beside them and enhance them deeply. Even in relationships that are structured as secondary or tertiary, where the only relationship that does exist is the D/S bond, what we term "normal" caring and consideration for your partner is what carries these relationships through harder times and makes them endure. Tan1thT waits for folks to comment. claudia{A: I am still reading, sorry .. had a lag :) Tan1th, since I've mostly been exposed to IRC bdsm, it's good to see that the r/l bdsm is so ... normal <g> Morrak nods... mena and myself will go RL as soon as i am set up in florida... we are IRC right now... and in fact havent met... i am sure that when we go RL it will take some tyme to establish what we have established here on IRC... i sont think the minute i see her that she will jump in no holds barred... Tan1thT grins at claudia. Let's say that I was culture shocked when I went to IRC after over a decade active in the real-time community. :/ sorraya: I totally agree with it Tan1th....it is my greatest regret that after my first serious correction with my Master during "aftercare" I did not think to ask how HE was feeling....although I often asked him in the normal course of the relationship, it simply escaped me then :/ claudia{A: so much
of what you've said tonite and the other forum I've seen you is what i've
thought instinctively, but until recently I wasn't sure enough about myself
to start exploring real life stuff I have seen many "submissives" so deeply hungry to have their own needs to submit or to bottom satisfied that they treated their tops like fantasy objects which existed to fulfill their needs and not as human at all. Some may confuse fantasy with reality and claim to be lifestyle submissives when their actual desire is to bottom masochistically and their temperment unsuited to actually submit as opposed to bottom for occasional pain play. Dishonesty, whether deliberate or the inadvertent result of inexperience with one's own real needs and desires, is a poor basis for negotiating a relationship or even a scene. Your dominant/top is a human being as well, first and foremost; and if you forget this and attempt to use hir as merely a blank stone wall to bounce your fantasies off of, you are not likely to keep hir as your dominant/top for long. Or perhaps worse, you may end up in an unhappy and unhealthy co-dependent relationship in which neither partner is really fulfilled and at least one partner feels constantly drained and pushed and stressed by the demands of the other. Tan1thT: I've seen a lot of BDSM relationships fail because of these biggies. They are really issues to think hard about. A major, major issue is nurturing and caretaking and who does it in a DS relationship. LLazarus: Amen to that Tan1th LLazarus: We all must to survive both submissives/slaves and Masters/Dominants Tan1thT: Unless there's a lot more enthusiasm generated, I'll wrap it up for the night and save the rest for later. :) sassysub: sounds like a good idea, Tan1th Strider|: Tan1th, thank you very much for your effort in behalf of all of us. claudia{A: Tan1th, I find what you say absolutely fascinating .. but my lack of real time experience prevents me from expressing myself a lot TheKttN: i'm enthusiastic:) but i my mind is all over the place wanting to know more. sorraya: That last paste hit home hard with me claudia{A: thank you Tan1th and I hope you'll do this again soon ^thumper: Thank you Tan1thT, I've learned a lot. Well done. Strider|: And the channel Ops for providing the space....my lainie and I will depart now. Tan1thT nods. I have a pretty obscene amount of material on the subject. One more paste, and it'll be a wrap. :) Morrak: oh Tan1thT
you are quite the speaker... :) Traditionally, the role of the caretaker and nurturer in the relationship is assigned to the dominant partner, but this does not always have to be so. In fact, if you can seperate these dynamics at least some of the time, your relationship is almost certain to be the stronger for it. Even in the most
TPE (total power exchange) relationship, where one partner is always and
forever dominant and in control, the status of permanent Master or Mistress
does not imply a lack of humanity and normal human susceptibility to stress
and hard times. If your owner/top/dominant comes home from a very hard
day and is obviously physically and emotionally exhausted, it is definitely
a poor time to play rebellious slave and demand to be punished. Try offering
a hot cup of tea or a footrub instead, and be willing to be totally undemanding
and to allow hir some quiet time alone if that is what is most needed. Tan1thT grins. Thanks for putting up with the technical difficulties. I *will* master this medium before we do this again. sorraya nods and nods and nods some more.....BUT.....demanding to be punished ?????? Tan1thT pokes viciously at her IRC script. sassysub laughs...you did great, Tan1th Tan1thT: sorraya: I think there is a fine line between being honest about your hardcore needs, and demanding your wants. sassysub: we greatly appreciate you and your knowledge sorraya shakes her head.....the sort of punishment in our relationship would never be desired, let alone demanded Tan1thT: "I want you to wear sexy clothes so I can get my rocks off" is a pretty lame demand. ;) sorraya: yes, I agree :) Tan1thT: "I really need to feel valued and worthy, or I cannot remain in the relationship and stay healthy." is an example of good communication. claudia{A: you've done a marvelous job, Tan1th, along with the other ops here LLazarus Applauds Tan1thT for the job well done this night. Tan1thT: Not that asking your partner if and when appropriate to help you get turned on and have an orgasm is bad...but I'm talking about "spank-me" subs here. ;) LLazarus: LOL has had the same type of problem Tan1th jade{SP}a: thank you Tan1thT :) TheKttN: Tan1th, thank you so much:) and seriously i am thinking of a million topics here Tan1thT: Watching "I've just read five Gor novels, I know everything" doms meet "Do me, do me, do me" subs is always interesting. ;) Morrak: Tan1thT... the first sub i had was a "punish me, and punish me now in public" sub... i was about a week or two into it and i bout freaked... needless to say it didnt work out... kinda weird expierence for me though... claudia{A: LOL Tan1th sorraya: lol indeed Tan1thT: Ain't the Net a wonderful place? sorraya just laughs.....it surely is....weird and wonderful claudia{A: it can be, Tan1th :) sassysub: uh huh...tiz sassysub: okie Morrak: yea it can be... :) been on it fro over 3 years now... :) and still going strong... :) sorraya: but hey, its how I was first introduced to the lifestyle, so it cant be all bad ;) Tan1thT also likes to hook up the clueless HNG's with the worse HNG's who hang out and pretend to be HotBiBabe19f and are really acne-ridden John Mortimer Blort from Wisconsin. ;) claudia{A: me too sorraya .. Gor yet! <laughs> sorraya: Guess I was just exceptionally lucky :))) sassysub: if all is said and done for tonight, i'd like to thank everyone for participating or just being here....Tan1th, i have heard lots and i must agree....you are wonderful and a great source of information sorraya: yes, thank you so much, Tan1th :)) Morrak: lol... Tan1thT: Thanks for being here, folks. :) Morrak: thank you
for sharing Tan1thT... :) |