Discipline vs Punishment
Speakers: LadyJewls and gdboy{LJ}
April 13,1997

<Sumptuous> LadyJewls and her sub gdboy are going to be speaking to you on the "Disapline vs Punishment" veiws from the top and bottom!

<Sumptuous> ..:)))) so lets begin!! LadyJewls is going to speak first and then gdboy will talk after the Q/A welcome LadyJewls Ma'am please start when you are ready

Action: LadyJewls *bows* to the channel....and would first like to thank her host Sumptuous for the special invitation

<LadyJewls> I will be speaking in spurts as I am typing this by hand so please excuse any pauses

<LadyJewls> first of all let me say hello to many I have not seen in a while from #submission

<LadyJewls> many of you may also know me as VenNFurs

<LadyJewls> I am not as experienced as some who have spoken here...however, have had some wonderful trainers

<LadyJewls> I began my lifestyle as a submissive, which was indelible knowledge to be used as a Domme

<LadyJewls> I was submissive in r/l for about one year and did some special training under one famous Dom from NY who grew up in a house of BDSM

<LadyJewls> I then could no longer supress my Domme urges...as my personality is truly dominant

<LadyJewls> I began about one year ago with my submissive gdboy who will be speaking to you in a while

<LadyJewls> I have also worked with some other subs and currently have another in training, all in r/l

<LadyJewls> i still continue to train myself under one who many of you may know as Midian...a very prominant Dom originally from Chicago

<LadyJewls> I believe in the lifestyle as a vehicle for erotic pleasure and a way to make fantasies real

<LadyJewls> I am extremely openminded and do not place any FOR SURE definition on any particular role

<LadyJewls> however, I do have my personal views on Discipline vs Punishment

<LadyJewls> and I will share them with you now

<LadyJewls> first of all I do not see them as the same thing

<LadyJewls> Discipline to me is something that is regimine

<LadyJewls> as in boot camp...running every day

<LadyJewls> conditioning

<LadyJewls> and when my subs have a difficult time with something we set up a plan of discipline

<LadyJewls> for example

<LadyJewls> when my sub could not tolerate any nipple play at first, we set up a regimine of discipline to have him inflict sensations daily until his tolerance came up and it became pleaurable

<LadyJewls> it is also used to inforce and reinforce certain behaviors that need to become second nature

<LadyJewls> such as etiquette, courtesy, and protocol....all of which may be different for each Dom/me

<LadyJewls> I hope I have made that definition clear and for anyone who is not clear...I will clarify in Q/A

<LadyJewls> my views and definition on Punishment are:

<LadyJewls> Punishment: consequence....simply that

<LadyJewls> something that is applied to remind the sub of what pleases/displeases their Dom/me and to be used when their behavior/response is not the desired one

<LadyJewls> I do NOT believe, however, that punishment involves pain

<LadyJewls> my opinion is that this lifestyle is about making pain plesureable

<LadyJewls> and to connect pain with unpleasant (punishment) defeats the purpose of the whole idea

<LadyJewls> my ideas on punishment that I have found MOST effective are tactics of disapproval, verbal reprimand, and in the worst scenarios.....distance and emotional shutdown

<LadyJewls> I believe that training a submissive is a very delicate and psychological procedure that builds around the whole process of unconditional trust

<LadyJewls> and a submissive grows with you emotionally as each new boundary is surpassed...they want and need emotional feedback to know they have pleased....and when this is taken away...it is most effective and all encompassing

<LadyJewls> to connect pain with punishment, in my experience, and thr ough my own mistakes, has proven to tear down the barrier of trust...and to ruin the door of communication...which is essential

<LadyJewls> its like Pavlov's Dogs.....

<LadyJewls> to condition pain with punishment to someone who enjoys pain can create a SAM

<LadyJewls> pain is to be used as a reward...a pleasure...a bonding of untraveled heights

<LadyJewls> and that is the conditioning I seek.....

<LadyJewls> so when my sub hears the whips of a cane in the air...he becomes aroused....NOT fearful

<LadyJewls> I hope I have given a good overview of my thoughts and opinions....whatever has been left unfinished I will answer in Q/A

<LadyJewls> Sumptuous....should we begin the Q/A now?

<marissa> QUEUE NOW OPEN

<marissa> GA Petruccio

<Petruccio> do you use writing as a punishment? do you recommend it?

<LadyJewls> not so much as a punishment...but a way for a sub and a dom to do some inner search on reactions and underlying motivators for certain unwanted behaviors

<LadyJewls> sort of a form of therapy

<LadyJewls> and it is also good for communication as some subs have an extremely difficult time expressing their needs and desires face to face verbally

<SirAJ> When the Dom/sub relationship is just developing, what kind of discipline is effective.

<marissa> GA SirAJ

<SirAJ> When the Dom/sub relationship is just developing, what kind of discipline is most effective?

<LadyJewls> geee...your moving fast here...wasn't really done but thats okay...hello SirAJ..<smile>....with a new sub...verbal displeasure and warning are usually enough as they are very unsure of themselves and what is expected from each new Dom/me...and must be allowed a chance to learn your desires without too much punishment...just communication and expressing your displeasure

<LadyJewls> if the new sub continues to repeat the unwanted behavior.....then you must go to further measures....

<LadyJewls> and the writing would be a good vehicle for them to try and find the answer to why they respond the way they do

<LadyJewls> patience is SOOO important with a new relationship......

<LadyJewls> and if you take on a sub who has been previously trained...the task of patience is even MORE IMPORTANT...as you must uncondition some things...and then recondition

<LadyJewls> and that it even more difficult for the sub than the Dom/me...as they are changing already conditioned responses...the Dom/me is NOT

<marissa> GA ErotikDom

<ErotikDom> you spoke of distancing yourself from the sub...do you tell them for how long? or let them twist in the wind as it were?

<LadyJewls> well, as with everything in a Dom/me's priveldge...that depends on my mood...and the infraction....

<LadyJewls> but to leave a sub hanging for too long....may create too much question and doubt...you may lose them.....so be prepared for that if you are too severe with distance.....maybe just tease with a phonecall....a short phone call...or brief email....very brief.....or give them an assignment to finish that is detailed...and they cannot communicate until finished.

<marissa> GA Mindful1

<MindFul1> Emotional abandonment seems such a blow to the very foundations of a relationship, really a negation of it, how can it have positive results in a loving D/s relationship?

<LadyJewls> not abandonment MindFul.....distance.....and if the relationship is open and trusting.....as with my sub/s....they know if they are overwhelmed they can call......

<LadyJewls> also....they know when I distance myself...I am EXTREMELY displeased....and it is VERY unpleasant....they are like your children who seek approval and acceptance.....and they will do better next time as not to fell left behind again

<MindFul1> well you used the word abandoment, so now you're backing away from that a bit?

<LadyJewls> i said abandonment?......didn't think so....but not correct verbage if I did

<MindFul1> okay

<LadyJewls> my first training Dom taught me harsh lesson of abandonment...and it damaged me...MindFul...you are 100% correct on that....

<marissa> GA hanna

<hanna> if you strongly suspect dishonesty or untrustworthiness.. even if it can't be proven.. do you administer Punishment or Discipline?

<LadyJewls> no, hanna......the trust works both ways...and in any relationship...I give them my trust until it is proven unworthy

<LadyJewls> and I must also look inside myself to see if perhaps I am being insecure and too controlling.....my sub is human and has a right to some private life and thought

<hanna> ok

<LadyJewls> i would just ask them and act upon their answer until proven otherwise

<LadyJewls> if my suspicion becomes too overwhelming...and there is too much gossip about...I would have to question the whole relationship...period

<marissa> GA minxx

<minxx> thank you Ma'am. i actually have 2 questions.

<minxx> 1-what is SAM?

<minxx> 2-if punishment is used to deter incorrect behaviour, how will a sub understand that if the degree is dependent upon the Dom/mes mood?

<minxx> if i know what my punishment will be...that is the deterent. if i do not understand the degree...where is the deterent? how do i know where the line is?

<LadyJewls> by the level of discomfort.....

<LadyJewls> and with the trust...if it has been built...you will know that it will end....and trust it will not be too much.....and if it becomes overwhelming....then you need to ask permission to communicate as you are overwhelmed

<LadyJewls> a SAM is a submissive who behaves in order to get punishment and pain relinquished upon them......

<minxx> thank you Ma'am..it's just that silence to me is torture when it is elongated.

<LadyJewls> they behave on purpose...and each time a Dom/me feeds into that...they reinforce the behavior....

<LadyJewls> exactly...minxx....thats the idea

<LadyJewls> but believe me when I tell you that the Dom/me is not enjoying it either.....but know it must be done in order to bring the relationship to its desired levels....

<marissa> GA Hawkwood

<Hawkwood> I would like to compliment LJ on her presentation. I have been touting much the same thing for years.

<Hawkwood> Pain should not be a punishment, but a pleasure to be enjoyed by both.

<LadyJewls> thank you Hawkwood for your support....it is good to know I am not alone

<LadyJewls> did you have a question Hawkwood?...or just commenting?

<Hawkwood> It bothers me when a sub uses misbehavior to be punished. I prefer her to associate it with good times.

<Hawkwood> End of comment. LOL

<LadyJewls> :)

<marissa> GA Sumptuous

<Sumptuous> just a quick comment in responce to minxx's question....."Smart Ass Maschocist" is exactly what the enitials of SAM stand for eheh...(wish i could spell it).

<Sumptuous> i have another comment in responce to Hawkwoods answer too though it is more of a qeustion i guess

<LadyJewls> thanks Sumpt...couldn't think of it just that sec...LOLOL

<minxx> thanks Sumpt

<Sumptuous> LOL LadyJewls i thought that might have been it..:)

<Sumptuous> my comment is that sometimes it is fun to something alittle off color to let Master know you are in the mood for rough play

<Sumptuous> like being *naughty* as opposed to *bad*....something that will make him think wickedly delicious thoughts to him or her self setting up a spanking scene for example ?

<Sumptuous> does that make sence?

<LadyJewls> this is true...but that type of communication is only understood after time together....it should be verbally communicated at first that you desire that type of play when you behave that way....and yes...it is FUN!!!....for example:...you'll love this

<Sumptuous> i think that might be seen as topping from the bottom...but it is not it is thinking as a sub to meet Master's needs

<LadyJewls> one day my sub was riding in the back seat...my father in the front....and he kept sticking his tongue out in the rear view mirror playfully, continuing to do it over and over...even after I raised my brow....so...when we got home a couple hours later.....he had forgotten all about it...but I had NOT

<LadyJewls> I had him close his eyes...and come to me with his unruly tongue hanging out then placed a wooden clamp on it for about 5 mins.....we have the picuture today....it is one of the best faces of humiliation I have EVER seen!!!!

Action: Sumptuous *grinz* eheh...kinda like bending at the waist with no panties on in a short skirt, when told to wear them.

<Sumptuous> ROFL

<LadyJewls> and was lots of fun for us both....LOLOLOL

<LadyJewls> yes...exactly

<Sumptuous> thankyou LadyJewls..:)

<LadyJewls> but again...I would like to reiterate that that type of communication must be built.

<marissa> GA aurelia2

<aurelia2> Good evening, Lady Jewls... My question... In th e newly forming relationship, if the sub does not have sufficient trust in the Dom, can discipline be effective?

<LadyJewls> number #1 misunderstanding about trust.....it is not earned as everyone thinks...it is given....wouthout question...both ways...until proven unworthy....if you are unable to do that you must work on your own issues of inability to trust....or work on the issues that got you in that situation of not being able to trust in the first place

<LadyJewls> those issues are often deep seated....and started way before you d/s lifestyle.....and until you resolve your own inner demons.....they will haunt you in every relationship...

<marissa> GA Hawkwood

<Hawkwood> If I may...What Sumptuous is describing is a game, and can be fun all around, as opposed to deliberate obnoxious behavior, which is not pleasurable to anyone.

<LadyJewls> yes Hawkwood..AGREED!!

<marissa> GA Mindful1

<MindFul1> LadyJewls, you said that this lifestyle is about making pain pleasureable. Isn't it possible that for many a loving D/s relationship is about control, not pain? And that in that context, pain *is* a very effective form of punishment?

<LadyJewls> i would think that a preference of that particular relationship....some relationships are about psychological control...and that is where their pleasure is...and yes...if you do not desire pain to be pleasure....you could use it for punishment...however...you are instilling a conditioning about pain that is very difficult to undo and that must be taken into serious consideration before using that technique....IMHO

<MindFul1> Well, I disagree that it's totally about psychological control

<marissa> GA Hawkwood

<Hawkwood> If I may use a games metaphor, pain is the way you keep score...

<Hawkwood> If a Dom merely requires a sub to do things she would do anyway, it is not D/s, but father/child...

<Hawkwood> When painful things are included, the relationship reaches new heights.

<LadyJewls> if she would do them anyway.....and they are pleasureable.....it is not punishment

<LadyJewls> it is role play

<LadyJewls> and that is another topic

<LadyJewls> and i have witnessed a VERY HOT scene with that scenario by Petruccio....INTENSE>..very good scene

<marissa> GA shedevly

<shedevyl> In the context of a power exchange based on control, pain can be used for erotic play to a lesser degree, in the midst of pleasure and still be quite effective used a punishment as well. One reason I am submissive, is to avoid the vanilla emotional mindgames resorted to in lieu of the clean air found in a D/s relationship, via swift retribution and clear expectations. It is very hard to compare a Mistress/sub relatioship to a

<shedevyl> A lot depends on whether the submissive is masochistic or not.

<shedevyl> It is very hard to compare a Mistress/sub relatioship to a Dom/sub relationship IMHO, they areapples and oranges.

<LadyJewls> ahhhhhh.....not so shedevyl....here we go with the gender barrier again......which gdboy will share his views on.....

<shedevyl> Well, it IS true for me. Just as something else may be true for another.

<LadyJewls> let me begin again by saying that I began as a sub....a f/sub....and have also played with some f/sub...and have many f/subs who I learn from ....and talked with many Domme/sub couples about just that issues

<LadyJewls> the only thing different is some of the areas of play...and there are cross gender equivilents of each thing...for example a woman has a g-spot...a man has a prostrate...same effect..different gender...also both genders have similarites regarding play...the differences seem to be individual for each f or m sub....not becuase of gender, but due to individual preference...

<shedevyl> Despite your own ideas, on the gender thing, my main point was the pain thing. I hope you don't overlook that.

<LadyJewls> and I have also found the pain thing do be an indivual thing not a gender thing....different for each female...and different for each male....

<LadyJewls> but I have found similar preferences and dislikes in each gender

<LadyJewls> one major personal observation that I have found is that the men start out with a lower tolerance level.....

<shedevyl> I agree wholeheartedly with MindFul1, there are many D/s relationship, where pain is the preferred method of punishment and it is indeed true punishment. A female simply cannot overpower a male, if he doesn't agree to punishment at the moment..it makes 'control' less real for me, since I could probably just refuse physical punishment too. Therefore, a Domme only HAS emotional withdrawal as a means.

<LadyJewls> that is not so shedevyl....

<shedevyl> Just food for thought <G>

<LadyJewls> i made my mistake once by overpowering a m/sub i had in trining...and using pain for punishemnt.....scared him so bad...I lost him.....

<shedevyl> Well I think some female submissives know exactly what I mean.

<LadyJewls> again, each relationship is different...and different things work better or worse in different relationshiips....

<shedevyl> true. :)

<LadyJewls> and everyone has their preferences....their is no SET rights or wrongs...unless things are done onconsentually

<shedevyl> absolutely

<LadyJewls> the art of being a good Dom/me is learning your sub...and improvising for thier needs and what is effective for them in particular...and finding the method most useful in getting the results you desire

<LadyJewls> no two subs are alike....FOR SURE!!

<LadyJewls> it is also imortant that when you take on a sub you have communicated to find if their are common interests, areas of play, and viewpoints....this is essential....otherwise you may play with someone who is not a good match..and try to procure behaviors they do not wish to participate in...and this is frustrating for both...and not a good relationship

<marissa> GA Petruccio

<Petruccio> i have found a great wealth of information in the literature: my favorites are D/s101, Screw the Roses, The Loving Dominant, The Toping Book, The Bottoming Book, and a very wonderful book "The LeatherMan's Handbook", i'm sure there are a ton of others

<LadyJewls> yes...good books

<LadyJewls> if your done Pet...do a GA

<marissa> GA Mindful1

<MindFul1> I go back to your statement that this lifestyle is about making pain plesureable. I disagree. What would you say to those who assert that what you're talking about is really sadism/masochism, not dominance/submission?

<marissa> all other questions please wait until the second half of the discussion...thank you

<LadyJewls> well Mindful, perhaps its my limited horizons so far...but I have not yet seen a d/s relationship that did not incorporate some type of corporal, or erotic sensaion during play......i haven't seen it yet

<MindFul1> sensation, yes

<MindFul1> but you're actually talking about one learning to turn pain into pleasure. that's masochism.

<MindFul1> and the pain is *not* the sole point for many in D/s relationships

<LadyJewls> and I haven't seen it w/o some sort of pain...if even at a low level...inflicted...but I haven't seen it all...and don't claim to have....but so far, generally speaking....all d/s relationships i have known in my widely encompassing network of lifestylers...use some sort of corporal...and the topic did not distinquish betwee d/s s/m....just Discipline vs punishment....again it is different for each relationship

<LadyJewls> correct...but we referred to pain as punishment

<MindFul1> you asserted that lifestyle is about making pain plesureable. I'm saying that for many, many in D/s, that just isn't so.

<LadyJewls> and the dynamics of that technique...whether in a d/s relationship or a s/m relationship

<LadyJewls> i said for ME...and many others....it is about that...from my experience

<LadyJewls> and as far as d/s goes...the term "subspace"...induced through endorphines released through corporal activities....is classified as pain....

<marissa> GA ErotikDom...__QUEUE CLOSED___

<ErotikDom> I have a big curve ball for you :)

Action: LadyJewls hooks herslef to the whipping post....LOLOL

<ErotikDom> what if you are a switch, with the same partner, do quit playing the one role till you are satisfied that your desires for your sub have been fulfilled?

<ErotikDom> or quit both roles for a time?

<LadyJewls> i will answer that question by reverting to one of the oldest d/s tricks used to signal an official in or out of role....the placing of and removal of the collar.....clearly defines when role is in....and when it is finished...and I would think that in a relationship with two swtiches...this tool would be essential to avoid any confusion as to who is who when....

<LadyJewls> and again...that would depend on the communication and needs of those particular individuals

<Sumptuous> okay thankyou LadyJewls..:)) we will move on now and ask gdboy to step up to the speakers box..:) welcome gdboy begin whenever you ready please...:)))

Action: LadyJewls *Bows* to all...and send her sub to the platform....

Action: gdboy{LJ} waves to all

<gdboy{LJ}> for those who came in late, i am the r/l sub to LadyJewls

<gdboy{LJ}> we have been together for about a year

<gdboy{LJ}> first, I agree with most of what LJ has said (like a good sub) :)

<gdboy{LJ}> In the beginning, I never thought that I would enjoy or get excited by floggings, etc

<gdboy{LJ}> however, she has been very patient in explaining, though example, the relationship betw een the pain and pleasure

<gdboy{LJ}> I see punishment, or course, as seperate

<gdboy{LJ}> when a child knows that something is wrong, you punish them as needed

<gdboy{LJ}> teaching them what is right and wrong is discipline

<gdboy{LJ}> I know, for example, through discipline, how LJ wants me to behave, to greet her, etc...

<gdboy{LJ}> she did not teach that by punishment...that only comes when I do something that I should have know better than to do

<gdboy{LJ}> originally, I would see a flogging, etc as punishment..and was afraid of it. However, thoough communication and patience, I have found that I actually enjoy the "pain", and do not see it as punishment for something I have done wrong, but as a reward

<gdboy{LJ}> the punishment that LJ spoke of earlier, ie being ignored, is much more severe than any flogging she could give me

<gdboy{LJ}> also, the verbal reprimand which she uses (with brow raised), is very effective with me...but I'm sure each sub may view that differently

<gdboy{LJ}> also, one other comment before Q&A, the m/sub appears to be in the definite minority in the bdsm world...however, I don't think we are all that different

<gdboy{LJ}> I think mostly, the m/sub is mostly misunderstood...ppl have preconceived notions that if you are a m/sub, you have lost your masculinity...actually, I think it does just the opposite

<gdboy{LJ}> I believe it takes a strong person to overcome the social barriers of a m/sub...and set the ego aside..to fulfill your inner desires...

<gdboy{LJ}> when I talk with f/subs, I find their views on punishment, pain, etc to be the same, only the techniques the Dom/me uses is sometimes different due to physical differences

<marissa> GA Petruccio

<Petruccio> just a comment: there are more male subs in the scene then females, and they are very much to be admired

<Petruccio> i respect male subs, since they appear to be the most honest

<Petruccio> i have been heard t say that all males are really slaves to women

<Petruccio> its just that the male sub has the guts to admit it

<Petruccio> IMHO

<gdboy{LJ}> thank you Petruccio...think there are more, just sometimes more in the closet

<marissa> GA Mindful1

<MindFul1> You said, "I have found that I actually enjoy the 'pain', and do not see it as punishment for something I have done wrong, but as a reward." Aren't you actually a masochist rather than a submissive?

<gdboy{LJ}> no, I don't think so...I have a submissive mindset, and enjoy serving my Mistress...however, I have learned that it takes a little pain to reach subspace...which is pleasure...not pain

<MindFul1> precisely. that's masochism.

<gdboy{LJ}> I guess maybe it depends on your definition of a masochist

<MindFul1> a masochist is someone who enjoys pain. is there a different definition?

<gdboy{LJ}> it is a very grey area, and overlaps...but just to serve LJ without "play" would be unfulfilling to me

<gdboy{LJ}> I think it depends on the degreee of pain that makes a real masocist...and afterall, it is call bdsm

<MindFul1> Do you have a different definition of masochism?

<gdboy{LJ}> Mindful1: I think it is someone who only wants pain, without the psychodynamics of submission...

<marissa> GA Sumptuous

<Sumptuous> my comment is directed at MindFul1's question. Part of submission is giving up, to a Dominate, and mentally pain is always previlent in a power exchange even if physical isnt there is always pain in D/s imho.

<Sumptuous> therefore we are all maschoistic in some way...espcially in the eyes of the vanilla world even if not our own

<gdboy{LJ}> exactly

<VRboy> One can be a masochist and more, it is not "all" that one is.

<gdboy{LJ}> yes!!!

<Sumptuous> pain can be exprienced on many levels not just the physical

<gdboy{LJ}> everything in the bdsm relationship overlaps...there is not just black and white

<Sumptuous> it is our vonerablity to pain and our Master's or Mistresses that makes us submissive to them.

<Sumptuous> control is painful it brings us to our knees...even if done lovingly there is still a sertain level of pain involved

<gdboy{LJ}> true...and even though physically I am stronger than LJ, when in the submissive mindset, that never occurs to me...it is as much mental as physical

<marissa> GA VRboy

<VRboy> These terms, DOM, sub, sadist, maschoist, are not limiting terms.

<VRboy> We are all more than 'just a sadist' etc.

<gdboy{LJ}> exactly...they all overlap...you can get a full night discussion from some on the term submissive vs slave

<gdboy{LJ}> or submissive vs maschocist

<Sumptuous> gdboy anymore comment s on your side of the discussion before we go to open forum?

<Sumptuous> okay i would like to thank our speakers tonight gdboy and LadyJewls so much for they candid and wonderful thoughts on Disapline VS Punishment..:)) i know i learned a lot tonight, also i wold like to let everone know next weeks speakers is...

<gdboy{LJ}> LJ and I would just like to thank all of you for the opportunity to share our views...we really enjoyed the evening!!

Action: ErotikDom applauds

<Sumptuous> OPEN FORUM ...:) please feel free to speak amoung yourselves the QUEUE is closed..:)

<Sumptuous> gdboy and LadyJewls you were amazing! and so was our group tonight thanks for all the great questions pelsae keep up the conversation now

<Sumptuous> eheh i would personnally rather be disaplined then punished

<LadyJewls> Sump...i hope you don't mind if I take a sec to invite everyone who may visit florida at any time to visit our channel for networking.....#bdsmflorida....all are welcome...and we have met many national visitors...and were able to host visitors to our local lifestyle

<ErotikDom> thanks LJ and gdboy

<Sumptuous> eheh LadyJewls the trechies started the channel because they got teased so much on this net LOL

<<Sumptuous> i was wondering when the first time was for everyone in the channel that they discovered a punishment was pleasureable? thus drawing the line between disapline and punishment?

<LadyJewls> is punishment supposed to be pleasureable....????

<Sumptuous> ehehh well i should have said pain i guess?

<VRboy> Pain is for some LJ.

<Sumptuous> i am talking about my naughty punishments if it wasnt for htem i would never get in trouble

<LadyJewls> well, it took gdboy 8 months to find it pleasureable....he was soo afraid of pain...had to go veeryyyy slow...and incorporate it with other sexual sensations...to make the connection for him

<Sumptuous> because i am never truely bad and would never do anythign to serious upset my Master not ever...and certainly not on purpose

<LadyJewls> LOLOL

Action: Sumptuous *smiles* yes the gift of pain is like wine eh? eheh has to be matured into so to speak?

<LadyJewls> exactly....

<Sumptuous> ayanna how about you ?

<VRboy> Nice image Sumptuous.

<LadyJewls> unless you get a seasoned sub....then lookout...they'll test your abilitites....LOLOL

<Sumptuous> VRboy you switch so do you LadyJewls...when was it for you?

<Sumptuous> LOL LadyJewls eheh very true often that is danger of having more then one sub...the bad one gets all the attnetion

<VRboy> I havn't had the courage to switch yet.

<Sumptuous> i learned that the hard way on the bottom.

<Sumptuous> PapaHem how about your ideas Sir?

<Sumptuous> VRboy why do you think that is?

<LadyJewls> it happened to me on stage Sumpt....i was doing scenes with a local Dom who runs the Bravo Troupe bdsm shows...and he was the first to ever take me to subspace....

<Sumptuous> wow did it work?

<VRboy> Social conditioning.

<LadyJewls> yes....my eyes were glazed over...and felt like i just shot up some morphine...I was all giggly and askew for awhile

Action: Sumptuous *grinz*

<Sumptuous> VRboy i bet you have some more questions for gdboy then eh?

<LadyJewls> as a Domme...i find no sexual connection to the pain....my pleasure is derived from the endorphine produced sub space

<Sumptuous> LadyJewls as a sub did you find it/

Action: PapaHem has dedicated his life to pain avoidance

<Sumptuous> PapaHem but you love spanking your subs right Sir?

<PapaHem> i like the company of good music, fine wine and beautiful women

<LadyJewls> not sure of your question Sumpt?

<VRboy> No, I can't do it all, and my cup is overfull now.

<PapaHem> oh yes, but never very hard, Sumpy

Action: Sumptuous *grinz* to VRboy i understrand Sir

<Sumptuous> gdboy i am interested in knowing what social issues were the hardest to overcome for you as a male sub and also what ones were for LadyJewls?

<VRboy> I have tried a couple of times with ppl I really cared for and it just didn't click.

<Sumptuous> PapaHem eheh it would hurt your hand to spank to hard Sir..:)

<PapaHem> exactly Sumpy

Action: Sumptuous *giggles*

<LadyJewls> and actually Sumpt...I have found that I'm not actually a switch...but a Domme who likes to bottom with the right Dom for a Power Exchange

Action: VRboy uses needles to avoid hurting hands.

<PapaHem> and i've been in those "toy stores" - that stuff is EXPENSIVE!!!!

<Sumptuous> so LadyJewls you dont like to switch for pain but for the power exchange?

<VRboy> And mostly junk too PapaHem.

<PapaHem> this has been a wonderful discussion, but my lady has arrive - seeyall later

<gdboy{LJ}> Sump...the hardest thing to overcome was the social stigman placed on men as subs...that they were wimps...or gay.....and looked down upon.....the fear of rejection...by both m/Doms and f/subs....

<LadyJewls> the hardest part for me was that my sub had fears of serving my publicly at bdsm events...and such...and not feeling like he could be proud....it made me sad for him...

<Sumptuous> as a female sub the hardest thing for me to overcome is dealing with my submission as not weak but a part of me that is strong and giving...and as a Domme because i switch it was hard to not see myself as a bitch or a bossy person...it sounds weird but it is true

<LadyJewls> but he is SOOOOOOOOO proud now.....and will pull othern new m/subs along...he is great

Action: Sumptuous *grinz****** oooh i LOVE happy endings!

<LadyJewls> and I bottom for the pain and the power exchange....some of the hottest scenes I have scene have been between two powerful Dom/mes exchanging power....the hottest scenes...really

<Sumptuous> i cannot submit to many people i am too overpowering my personnality and in all honesty i love a great deal of control or none at all i have to love and respect my Master otherwisei cant even fake alittle subservience

<LadyJewls> ahahaha....I can understand that

<LadyJewls> i only bottom to specially picked Doms...and to date there have been only two

<LadyJewls> who can satisfy my needs as a bottom

<LadyJewls> and allow me to be dominant and not let that interfere in our relationship.....

<Thor-> LadyJewls !!! You sexified thing, you !!! :) LTNS !

<Sumptuous> LadyJewls and gdboy thankyou so much for speaking tonight you were great!

<LadyJewls> well, once again Sumpt...we thouroughly enjoyed our visit...thanks so much for inviting us......

<LadyJewls> and we will come again anytime you ask.....but this topic was right up my alley...LOLOL

Action: LadyJewls *bows* to all...and heads to bed content

<LadyJewls> hope we can speak again soon!!