Beginner's Guide to Dominance and Submission
Speaker: James Bryant
December 10, 2001
Beginner's Guide to Dominance and Submission

KttN: Welcome to our "Beginner's Guide to D/s" discussion with James Bryant.
This is going to a bit less formal than other discussion. I will ask that you message Sirious with questions and we will then put them on the channel. After Mr. Bryant answers, there can be some discussion.
So, please welcome James Bryant to #submission and Sirious is ready for questions.

JBryant: Well, thank you, KttN, for the introduction, and hello everyone. Thank you for being here tonight.

Zuzzz waves to Mr Bryant : ) "Good Evening and thank You for coming tonight"

JBryant waves back at Zuzzz. ;)

Foord__: chuckles

KttN: Here is the first question
KttN: Submissives are, in general, very reluctant to use a safeword, however distressed they may be by something going on in a scene. How do you see the Dominant's responsibility to observe and make his own decisions to back off based on what he observes, rather than waiting for the safeword?
KttN: After all, some subs may be very stoic, and some might shriek and cry at relatively 'light' touches or bonds.

JBryant: Hmm....Interesting.
JBryant: I understand about the reluctance to use 'safewords', since they can be used as a control from the bottom.
JBryant: The Dominant has the ultimate responsibility to watch the scene, though. It is under their control.
JBryant: However, we're doing this to have fun, right? All this is supposed to be fun...that's what I thought. ;)
JBryant: Soooooo, if the submissive is distressed enough to pop 'out of scene', then they should do it.
JBryant: Communication is key key key, and I would see this kind of thing happening between a couple that doesn't really know the other.
JBryant: Done.
JBryant: Hee!

KttN: if she does safeword out, should they stop the scene completely?

JBryant: I really don't think so. I'm much less of the mind that a 'scene' is much different from the usual relationship.

Carcosa: I think that safewords are very very important

JBryant: I understand, Carcosa, but not every couple requires them.
JBryant: You can say, 'always have a safe call when you go to meet someone', but how many of us actually have done that consistantly?

nigma{BD}: Safewords are important...unless the person Dom/me'ing is an ass like my ex and doesn't acknowledge the safeword.

JBryant: 'Never scene on the first date'....how many have broken that rule. :)

firey raises her hand

JBryant: ...okok...we're getting off the question.

Zuzzz: I tend to think if the couple is close then the Dominant should have some idea of the amount of stress on the submissive and already know when to back off.

JBryant: To finish up my opinion on it...both the Dom and the sub should be responsible for the scene. The Dom has the final authority, but who knows more about what is doable or not than the sub?

firey: i think safewords are important to dominants, but subs are afraid to use them for fear of seeming distrustful.

JBryant: That's a shame nigma. I'm sorry to hear about your bad situation.

JBryant: Firey, you've touched on something important.

nigma{BD}: T'was years ago... I've learned my lesson.

firey listens :)

Zuzzz: I think the key word nigma is 'ex' : ) you did the smart thing

JBryant: Why would the sub be afraid of seeming distrustful?

nigma{BD}: He wasn't a true Dom, he was an abuser.

JBryant: Or...more accurately, where would the Dom get the idea that a sub using a safeword 'distrusted him'?

firey: because she would appear to be countermanding her Dom's judgement.

{nitya}MB: what if your Dom doesnt like setting the scene and asks you to?

JBryant: Ahh, but the Dom has created the safeword...

Zuzzz: I think not firey Dominants are human and can get just as caught up in the moment as anyone. . . to safeword out might be a good reality check.

Foord__: or perhaps, out of fear of not seeming to be "up to it"

JBryant: Yes...yes. :)

firey: that too Foord Sir

JBryant: My opinion, though...Doms get into a very sad condition, especially when they are around other BDSM couples.
JBryant: I call it, "Gotta Be Right' syndrome.

Foord__: Dominants aren't gods, and the ones who'd like to be are even less close than those who admit their fallability.

JBryant: A safeword use is a sub pointing out that the Dom has made an error in judgement...
JBryant: Maybe the Dom is going too fast or too hard.
JBryant: Either way, it is an error that the Dom made. Otherwise, the safeword won't be used.

darkdanca: agrees with Foord

Zuzzz: I think a safeword should be an attention getter for the Dom. And the Dominant should do a 'safety' check if need be. . . . I think most of here want fun of it.

JBryant: Both are engaged in the scene...both should be responsible for correcting, managing, and settling problems.
JBryant: Different words, same idea. Thanks Zuzzz.

KttN: ready for the next question?

JBryant: Yes..lets. :)

KttN: How did you learn about D/s? Would it help new Doms/subs to learn first-hand from more experience lifestylers, or can they get enough information from reading and practice?

JBryant: How did I learn? By doing. No books, no videos, no friends on the internet.

{nitya}MB: wow

JBryant: My first wife and I had the desire.

firey: didn't that get a little awkward at first?

JBryant: Of course. :) Very awkward. We knew what we wanted, but had no guides to show us how.
JBryant: Soooo, we came up with our own style.

firey: so it was tri al and error and practice?

JBryant: Afterwards, we found the online communities.
JBryant: You got it, firey.

firey smiles

Diony: i am just starting out. its an expensive... exploration.

Foord__: How long have you been involved James?

JBryant: OH heck...how long.
JBryant: Actively since 91-92...
JBryant: Somewhere around that timeframe.

firey: did you have these feelings earlier? with no words to put to it?

JBryant: Bingo!
JBryant: but...just a sec. Diony, what do you mean 'expensive'?

Diony: JB, for a young couple, and intended for moderate to infrequent use.... gear can be expensive.

JBryant: Ok... :) But, you can always make your own....and this actually brings me to a point that I love to make.

firey: did you at first create your own tools Sir?

Foord__: There are a lot of common household items that can be used for creative play--perhaps you should use those and buy gear for special occasions

{nitya}MB: M has made all His gear

firey: the hardware store is great

Zuzzz: Home-Depot is Our friend : )

Carcosa: Oil furnace igniters

firey: lol

Foord__: LOL

Carcosa: zap zap

JBryant: We used no tools other than two quickly sewn straps I used to tie her hands.
JBryant: This is the difference between B&D and DS.
JBryant: IMHO. ;)

Diony: It doesn't help having a leather fetish then, I suppose :)

Foord__: not unless you take up leatherworking LOL

JBryant: Ahh...fetish is a different animal. :)

firey: but they can be intertiwned can't they?

JBryant: Yes, they can and usually are intertwined. But, they are not dependent on each other.

firey: i agree

JBryant: These are my points of contention.
JBryant: My opinion follows. :)
JBryant: B&D - The tools, things, leather, straps, fun, whee!, needles.;..all the things and stuff of BDSM
JBryant: Fun, creaky, leathery...ahhhhhh
JBryant: So nice.
JBryant: DS - the actual power exchange or the idea behind BDSM. This is the part that I consider to be the soul of BDSM
JBryant: No tools...no 'impliments of instruction'...just the pure basics of Dominance and submission.
JBryant: This is the land that my ex and I created between ourself.

firey: the voice can be the best tool, the look...

{nitya}MB: oh yeah firey :)

JBryant: And, this is the part each one of us customize for our own relationships.
JBryant: We all love leather and D rings, right?
JBryant: :)

Zuzzz nods

{nitya}MB: Jb acually W/we dont use leather

firey: course we do!!!!

JBryant: Hee! You know what I mean, nitya. :)

{nitya}MB: M n i that is
{nitya}MB blushes n nods

JBryant: Doms, ask yourself if you could maintain a 'scene' without your 'stuff'.

Zuzzz: certainly

JBryant: Subs, could you submit without being tied down/up?

swt_slave: i can totally submit, w/out being tied

{nitya}MB: JB i think it gives it an added element of challenge

JBryant: So, my opinion, the items are not necessary. They're nice to have, and fun to be with, but not necessary.

stoked: JBryant for me no tool could make me submit, if my mind wasn't totally into no Dom could ever have any power over me

JBryant: Yay! stoked understands!

Diony: What do you consider to incite the mindset to give up control, stoked?

JBryant: Yes.

stoked: that's why no one on irc ever gets anywhree near to succeeding w/me

stoked: Diony love and trust alone

JBryant: Ahh....now we roll into the difference between RL and cyber.
JBryant: :)

KttN: and the next question :)

{nitya}MB: uh oh :-o not *that*

JBryant: But, that is a separate question.

stoked: the tools just add fun/flavor

JBryant: Next question, KttN. ;)

KttN: Can D/s work online, for those who haven't the opportunity to go to real life because of primary relationships, situation in their community and so on? What do you see as online's limits and benefits?

JBryant: I do love those free-for-all discussions. ;)
JBryant: Ok...the question from time immemorial - is cyber real/valid
JBryant: I love cyber.
JBryant: Just for the record.
JBryant: :)
JBryant: How else could I meet so many interesting and amazing people in such a short time?
JBryant: As far as cyber is concerned, it is a difficult medium to work in as a Dom and a sub.
JBryant: Difficult, but not impossible.
JBryant: I can really only reference my own situation.
JBryant: For a time, I was sub to a lovely lady on AOL.
JBryant: Cyber only. It was not possible for us to meet.
JBryant: Did I submit to her wishes? Oh yes.
JBryant: Was I a real submissive? I believe so. I served her desires within the limits of our medium.
JBryant: And, in serving her, I was content and happy.
JBryant: Was she a real Dominant? Yes. She layed out our relationship, and was strict, firm, loving, etc.
JBryant: We were limited by space, but not by feelings.
JBryant: I served, and did so to the best of my ability within our limitations. She commanded. It was wonderful. :)

stoked: but how does she know you weren't just saying yeah i'm doing that
stoked: like i had a guy try to tell me to do something
stoked: and i was like yeah whatever sure i'm doing it

JBryant: That's always a problem, stoked
JBryant: Did they spank themselves? Did she really kneel? Did he say this but really stick out his tongue?

Zuzzz: its like real life ya can 'fake' and orgasm too . . . i would guess trust has a lot to do with it

JBryant: You had no desire or willingness to submit to that person, correct?

stoked: nah he was nothing to me

JBryant: Bingo...you should have told him to fuck off. ;)

stoked: i did. to an extent

JBryant: Cool. but.....there's something more, though?

stoked: well he could hold a decent conversation too so i didn't wanna offend him

stoked: and often times that's rare. plus i'm not a total bitch

JBryant: If there is no physical contact, it is ALL about trust and integrity.
JBryant: Hee! It's hard to find someone that can keep up a decent conversation online sometimes. ;)

stoked: exactly

JBryant: That's when you use your well honed submissive tact. "Sir, I would love to bow to your wishes, but I cannot bring myself to submit to just anyone.".
JBryant: :))

stoked: *grin* if only i were that tactful

JBryant: It is a valuable lesson to learn, stoked.
JBryant: Ok...we good on that?

stoked: yeah

JBryant: Cool. ;)
JBryant: Cyber CAN BE as real or as fake as any other relationship.

{nitya}MB: i agree it depends on your level of imagination :)

JBryant: Imagination and feelings.
JBryant: Have you ever been blessed out for screwing up online?

{nitya}MB: "screwing up"?

lavende`Z: blessed out?

brenn: blessed out?

JBryant: Hee! Southernism. hollared at.

brenn: ahhhhhh

lavende`Z chuckles

stoked: reprimanded

{nitya}MB: in a scene?

swt_slave: yes, i have

firey: all the time stoked: nope

JBryant: In or out of a scene. doesn't much matter.
JBryant: Ok, how did that make you feel?

firey: distressed

JBryant: Bad, good, angry? Doesn't matter which ones. Real feelings, all of them. All generated by pixels on a screen.

swt_slave: depends on the situation....for lack of a better term,,, dumb

{nitya}MB: no i havent im a good faker online ;)

firey: who fakes?

JBryant: Real feelings of anger, angst, happiness....you wanna tell me that's fake because it's on a computer?
JBryant: Feh.
JBryant: Cyber, just like RL is as real or as fake as you make it.

{nitya}MB raises her hand at firey

JBryant: The media doesn't make a difference.

stoked: but when you are scening

swt_slave: however, cyber can be more fake

JBryant: Again...makes no difference.

stoked: and the Dom says ok i'm flogging you or spanking you

firey: well i don't, why bother?

stoked: if you've never even experienced that in real life, how can you possibly pretend to know how that feels\ or how you would react. you don't.its just your imagination
stoked: if you were put in that situation irl your responses could be totally different
stoked: and that isn't being true to yourself

swt_slave: i agree w/ stoked on that

firey: i have both experiences, online can br real emotionally just as much, maybe not the actual pain but the feeling of disappointing one's dominant

JBryant: Yes, I do understand that part. BDSM is not, in my opinion, about the pain or the flogger or the paddle.

{nitya}MB: who cares what the other person is really doing, its how you feel that is important

stoked: fantasy is ok as long as you dlon't forget to live in reality

{nitya}MB: oh that is so true stoked :)

JBryant: Ahhh....gotta love it. :)
JBryant: Stoked, you have made very good points.

stoked: its like i'm new to this whole thing
stoked: and people ask me what my interests are
stoked: i say what i think i'd be interested in and i could think i like them
stoked: but untill i actually experience it i really have no idea stoked: as far as i know stoked: i may only like it in my head and if it ever happened irl i could hate it

Zuzzz: I think most ppl would agree that this like any lifestyle should be view with a clear mind and follow some good common sense.

lavende`Z: stoked...you have to find someone you WANT to experience it with

JBryant: Totally understandable, stoked. Very good points.

stoked: lavende`Z i know

JBryant: and stoked brings up very good points regarding the limitations of cyber.

stoked: that's why i'm going to a gateway meeting tomorrow for the local munch group

{nitya}MB: sometimes cyber is the anonymous love life people are looking for
{nitya}MB shrugs

JBryant: Yes...just what I was getting towards..

{nitya}MB: i'd never be able to admit what i enjoy in bed to a bunch of strangers irl

swt_slave: i would not have been able to scene, if i didn't already experience things

stoked: but what if that fantasy life starts taking control of real life

JBryant: Some people are a bit shy, or have a job or family life that makes it impossible to engage in BDSM in real life.
JBryant: Cyber is a wonderful and very valid outlet.

stoked: 13% of marriages end in divorce now because of the internet and computers
stoked: it can be extremely unhealthy

Foord__: an interesting statistic

JBryant: stoked...marriages died before the internet, computers, and telephones.
JBryant: My arguement is that cyber is NOT fantasy, like you maintain.
JBryant: That is our difference of opinion.

{nitya}MB: that is up to the marriage

firey: and the internet points up that ppl do feel on the internet
firey: and those feelings are valid

stoked: JBryant if a person is interested in bdsm and their partner isn't then maybe that partner is not for them
stoked: going online and fulfilling those desires is a form of cheating

Foord__: it's just another way to meet someone else--rather than work for example

JBryant: That is a separate question.

{nitya}MB: stoked easy for YOU to say.....

Zuzzz: stoked cheating is cheating does it really matter the medium used. . . . it violates the trust bonds. . . .

stoked: how so nitya

firey: so guys going to hooters and getting off and paying attention to the women at work and thinking thoughts is cheating too then

JBryant: OKOKOK!!! Way off track!

firey: sorry

JBryant: Hee!

{nitya}MB: when you are in a rela tionship where you arent the only one to think about it isnt that simple
{nitya}MB will leave that alone sorry

JBryant: Ok...it seems that cyber still is a hot point for conversation. :)
JBryant: That's ok. It was a hot point back on AOL in the mid 90s.

swt_slave: haha

KttN: serveral hot points :)

sandpiper: sometimes cyber is a gentle sharing between loving friends also

Foord__: yes--is cyber "real enough", and if it IS, is it cheating?

{nitya}MB: as long as your partner knows i dont see it as cheating at all

JBryant: We'll pitch a bucket of sand on that one for the time being.

Foord__: hahaha stoked: it depends on your definition

stoked: i have extremely high morals and standards
stoked: i had a bf and held hands w/another guy and felt affection for that other guy and i was wreaked w/guilty for that small of an act
stoked: so for me, having emotions for someone online is deffinately cheating

{nitya}MB shrugs and stops kicking the dead horse

rai{H}: stoked....key words "for you"..:)

stoked: my point exactly rai stoked: which is why i added them

rai{H}: :)

KttN: okay next question :)
KttN: ready for the next question? or does anyone have any other comments?

KttN: i loved your section on Reward and Punishment. Have you noticed that sometimes subs are acting up as a way to just get the Dom's attention - to get a reaction? Is it up to the sub to tell the Dom that s/he needs more of his time and attention? How can she do that without seeming to be demanding or unsatisfied?
KttN: this has a followup too.

stoked thinks SAM

swt_slave listens VERY close to this one

JBryant: Ok. My response to this is a simple question. "Do you say anything to your Dom other than 'yes sir' and 'owch'?
JBryant: This is one of those 'healthy relationship' kinda questions.

swt_slave: of course

{nitya}MB giggles

JBryant: You simply talk to your Dom.. :)

swt_slave: sure, JBryant, why shouldn't we??

JBryant: If the sub is feeling ignored or needs more time, then the sub should bring that up outside of a 'scene' or stuff.
JBryant: :)
JBryant: Look at it from a non BDSM viewpoint.

swt_slave: many more things to say, than the obvious

{nitya}MB: JB isnt it trie that if the Dom isnt spending time with the sub its the sub's fault?

swt_slave: not that easy

{nitya}MB: i mean when M doesnt want to spend time with me i know i did something wrong...
{nitya}MB: oops

JBryant: "Honey, could you come in here and watch TV with me?" Feminine wiles...feminine wiles. :)
JBryant: If you're a male sub though... Hmmm....
JBryant: Nitya, it could be, but I would hope that you would be informed that you were being punished.
JBryant: Most people don't realize that they're ignoring their partner.

{nitya}MB: i guess its sort of implied lol thats the way He is

JBryant: Hee. It's a good thing that you know your Dom well.

swt_slave: it's not that easy to say "i need Your attention"
swt_slave: in any relationship

{nitya}MB: JB we ahve been married for 6.5 years i SHOULD

KttN: and not to sound like you are whining when you ask is even harder.

JBryant: True, because 'need your attention' is a generic term.
JBryant: Most everyone here is in a MaleDom/femsub relationship, correct?

swt_slave: well, many variations on it, but that idea

Lenore: I am in a Female Dom/femsub relationship

. JBryant: I understand that there are FemDomme/femsub and every other combo. ;)

swt_slave: MOST are like you said, yes

JBryant: And Lenore, I like. Got pics? *wiggles eyebrows* :))

swt_slave: haha

JBryant: Hee!
JBryant: BUT, gals, the care and feeding of a man is a delicate operation. We are, for the most part, fairly dense.

Lenore grins at JBryant ;)
Lenore: hahhaha

{nitya}MB: AH! he admits it!
{nitya}MB: lol

swt_slave: i agree

JBryant: When you say things like 'need attention', it doesn't translate into GuySpeak very well.

{nitya}MB: what a guy ;)

swt_slave: true enough

Carcosa: speak for yourself ;P

swt_slave: but, JBryant, it wasn't exactly that phrase, but anything of that idea

{nitya}MB: "need attention" means to M "stop what you are doing and come play with me"
{nitya}MB rolls her eyes

stoked: shouldn't expressing those kinds of feelings be the same as it would be in any relationship

swt_slave: it's easier in a regular relationship, i think anyway

stoked: probably

Carcosa: I think that's rather promulgating a sexist stereotype about men

JBryant: I do understand what you're asking, swt. If I had an answer, I'd probably be on Oprah.

swt_slave: oh, ok, i'm sorry

JBryant: No need to be sorry. It's life with women and men. More questions than answers.

swt_slave: oh yes

{nitya}MB: i think part of a sub's plight is that we cant have our Dom/me's attention whenever we want it
{nitya}MB: we have to WORK for it :)

swt_slave: YES {nitya}MB: makes it all the more enticing eh?

JBryant: Yes.

swt_slave: and work some more

{nitya}MB: lol
{nitya}MB: exactly

KttN: well this is a kind of follow-up question. same topic of punishment.
KttN: What do you think of deprivation being used as a punishment?

JBryant: It is a wonderful means of punishment, depending on the deprivation.

swt_slave cringes

JBryant: Deprive attention, Deprive movement.

KttN: i think they mean of themselves

JBryant: Self punishment?

KttN: no :) i think they mean when the Dom deprives the sub of himself

stoked: lol don't women do that when they want their husband to know somethings wrong

Foord__: either by absence or by "ignoring"

JBr yant: Ahh. Stoked has a line on the truth.

stoked: they don't have sex w/him until he gets the point something is wrong
stoked: i know i used that tactic before
stoked: gets the point across right quick

JBryant: Yes. The withdrawal of affection, attention, or physical proximity is a most excellent punishment.

{nitya}MB: sometimes that doesnt work
{nitya}MB: and its harder of YOU than the person you are trying to deprive :o

JBryant: Who ever said that the sub was the only one hurt during punishment?

Zuzzz: ZACTLY JB!!!!
Zuzzz: 'this hurts Me than it does you

Lenore agrees with Z heh

swt_slave: sounds like my MOTHER

JBryant: Zuzzz can testify!

swt_slave: it doesn't hurt You more

lavende`Z would love to switch shoes with the punisher to prove it doesn't hurt them more

swt_slave: thank you lavende`Z

lavende`Z: lol swt

JBryant: Oh...but you must realize there is more to pain than physical.

lavende`Z nods, knowing all too well

swt_slave: true, but even mentally and emotionally

Zuzzz: smart group here : }

swt_slave: it takes more of a toll on most of us than most of Them

JBryant: And putting an action into 'punishment mode' changes things drastically.

JBryant: Example: We're having a big fun time, spanking, rope
JBryant: Ahh, much fun had by all.
JBryant: Later, the sub makes a mistake that results in punishment.

Foord__: in other words, JB--not just doing a passive-aggressive deprivation thing but sayin clearly--This is your punishment

JBryant: Yes, Foord. It's not punishment unless the sub knows it is punishment. I bring out the same rope, the same paddle...

swt_slave: yes, then something in the mind switches.......the same physical feeling that was good pain b/4 hurts now

JBryant: I do the same things to you, but something is much different.
JBryant: Yes, swt. You have it.
JBryant: Remember when you were a kid?

swt_slave: ohhhhh do i

JBryant: Remember how your ass hurt before the paddle hit?
JBryant: Hasn't touched you, but ooooooh, the pain.

swt_slave: exactly

Baatezu: "..the intentions Behind the Act...Define it"

JBryant: It's no different.
JBryant: Baatezu, you are a font of wisdom.

Baatezu: it's a living ;)

JBryant: :))

swt_slave: but, the punishment pain seems to be stronger, too

JBryant: Yep. swt_slave: if that makes sense

Baatezu: because your mind knows your being punished

swt_slave: right Sir

Baatezu: your mind ofrces you to channel the pain in a certain way in both instances
Baatezu trades in his fingers

JBryant: Or...YOU know you're being punished.
JBryant: Shades of difference.

swt_slave: but Any Dom/me that says what Sir Zuzzz said earlier.......no idea P/people

lavende`Z: unless they started as submissive

JBryant: The emotional disappointment may not compare to the burning across your loins, but it is pain, none the less. :)

lavende`Z: then they know all too well

swt_slave: there is no way it can hurt You more than us

swt_slave: i agree Sir
swt_slave: to an extent

Zuzzz: swtslave in the disappointment of having to correct an unruley submissive is not a 'thrill' to all Dominants as some might think. . I know Doms who very much hate to have to discipline their subs

swt_slave: i agree Sir
swt_slave: but....
swt_slave: it takes more of a toll on us

JBryant: swt, many times, a Dom considers a mistake by their sub to be a mark against their training, their character. I know I do.

swt_slave: b/c..
swt_slave: we disappointed Them

{nitya}MB: M cries when He has to punish me
{nitya}MB: :-(

swt_slave: plus the physical and whatnot

Zuzzz: yes JB thats what i mean some take it as if you slapped Them

{nitya}MB: He hates it

Zuzzz: and some Doms welll I have injured a few muscles of My own instilling a lil discipline

lavende`Z clears her throat

swt_slave: jeeze Zuzzz Sir, kill the poor sub

JBryant: swt, I'm not going to try to convince you that, in the long view, the scales are fairly level. I just know they are from being on both sides of the fence.

stoked: this is all the part i like the best about bdsm

swt_slave: and to a point, i agree JBryant Sir

Zuzzz: swtslave acutally it was a misque on My part and the paddlle slipped from grip and i . . . fell over and got hurt LOL
Zuzzz: so yes it hurt Me more than it did her :}

swt_slave: oh mygosh Zuzzz Sir

JBryant: So, shall we move to the next hot button topic of disagreement? Hee!!

swt_slave: yes......i'm worked up now

KttN: okay:) i have another question
KttN: what are your thoughts on a loving relationship between Dom and sub that includes cyber and training as an expression of that closeness at times but not a collar

JBryant: Hmm...Sounds good to me. :)
JBryant: A collar is nice, but not necessary. Sometimes, the fiddly stuff like collars can get in the way.

swt_slave is stumped........for now

Zuzzz: Ya saying formalities suck?
Zuzzz: respectfully of course

JBryant: Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. It all depends on the situation.

stoked: also wouldn't you say JBryant that a collar is only a symbol and not the actual sign of submission

JBryant: I would say that is deep truth, stoked.

swt_slave: ok, i get it now

JBryant: But, it is also a wonderous and happy occasion...getting collared.

stoked: collar is unnecessary its just a symbol

Zuzzz: so is a wedding ring but many couple share their whole lives without one :}

swt_slave: not necessarily true stoked

JBryant: Yes! Another hot button!

stoked: exactly Zuzzz

swt_slave: right

JBryant: It really depends on the couple. What does the sub consider the collar to mean?

Zuzzz: but getting married is a wonderous experience :}

JBryant: Same for the Dom.

Baatezu: Actualy a Coller is more of a symbol of ownership than simple submission it's a symbol of a Deep profound connection between the Master and sub. however isn't needed for simple or casual play

{nitya}MB: collars mean nothing without real submission

swt_slave: collars, to a people who understand them are important, we don't feel right w/out it

KttN: so this would work well as a friendship and non-exclusive?

stoked: i agree w/nitya

JBryant: I'd say so, KttN.

Baatezu: I would agree

swt_slave: nice conclusion, Baatezu Sir

lavende`Z: a collar, as with wedding vows...means different things to different people

JBryant: Just for the record, I like collars (the kind we're talking about).

Baatezu: tanx swt

JBryant: And, just for the record, here's the kind that I don't like...

stoked: i like the idea of it, but at the same time i know its not necessary it just reflects on the outside what is felt on the inside

Zuzzz: velcro?

lavende`Z: LOL

JBryant: I don't like pickem up one day drop em the next cyber bullshit collars.
JBryant: Rarr!

swt_slave: but, i'm trying to prove my worth to a Dom, i had to dig out an old choker/necklace, just to help me behave

{nitya}MB: amen JB

Baatezu: i'm partial to styrophome(sp)

lavende`Z ^5's JBryant

Zuzzz: We call them velcro collars :}

rai{H} smiles..

stoked: i agree w/that JBryant

JBryant: A collar *should* mean something.
JBryant: A collar is a promise.

Baatezu nods in agreement

JBryant: by both the sub and the Dom.

stoked: the analogy between a collar and a wedding ring is a very good one i think

lavende`Z smiles up lovingly to Zuzzz

JBryant: The analogy holds well, stoked.

sandpiper: i agree with that it can get confusing sometimes though

JBryant: Yes.

stoked: also made me understand more why its so important to people once Zuzzz pointed that out

JBryant: Zuzzz sounds like a sharp cookie.

swt_slave: He is Sir

lavende`Z smiles proudly

swt_slave: W/we've all learned that

Zuzzz: nah . . . i just came here last night :}
Zuzzz: joke

swt_slave: haha

JBryant: Hee

rai{H}: lol Zman :)

JBryant: It's getting a little late for the East coasters. How are y'all doing?

Zuzzz: JB these ppl here are very good ppl and most i have come to know over the years. . . .

swt_slave: this is early for most, Sir

Zuzzz: <--- east coast got all night

stoked: heh should be studying but its too interesting

rai{H}: me too :)

lavende`Z: lol..sure is, swt

sandpiper: me too

JBryant: Hee. Ok then. Ready for next question.

KttN: okay:)
KttN: okay, this one could apply to several things....
KttN: how bout if you feel you are sub and can't convey it to your partner who doesn't seem to want to explore it or may also be sub, how do you approach this and work out your needs?

JBryant: woooo.
JBryant: Rough situation.
JBryant: I hate to say it, but there are very few easy answers for this one.
JBryant: I truly feel sorry for the person that finds themselves in this situation. On one hand, you have your desires.
JBryant: On the other hand, you have your partner. (I am guessing that the partner is more than just a boy/girl friend)
JBryant shakes head

firey: this happens a lot and you find ppl with this situation often come to irc to fulfill the best they can

JB JBryant: And there is one use for cyber. An outlet for desires not fulfillable in other ways.

stoked: that's not fair to your partner

firey: fair???????????

stoked: especially if you never even bring it up because you are too scared

firey: what is this about being fair?

JBryant: Stoked is right, actually.

firey shakes her head

rai{H}: stoked...sometimes..the partner has absolutely NO interest..

JBryant: It has to do with expectations and promises.

DiBo: I have found, actually, that introducing subtle play can lead to bigger things

swt_slave: one should take a self-assertiveness course

{nitya}MB: thats my situation
{nitya}MB: M hates cyber

stoked: rai then why are you w/that person

DiBo: injecting just a little more power into the sexual part of the relationship
DiBo: or just deciding to act that way for one night

stoked: if you aren't sexually compatible why are you together

firey: oh geeze

stoked: if you are gay why have a heterosexual marriage

lavende`Z: all relationships are give and take, stoked

Carcosa: stoked maybe other reasons

rai{H}: sometimes you don't realize the desires/needs until long after you are together

JBryant: Whew.

lavende`Z: if someone fulfills everything you desire but one thing...do you leave them?

stoked: sexual preferences are one of the most important bases for a relationship
stoked: how can you be untrue to yoruself and your partner

Zuzzz: I think if you live in a situation where you are D/s and yer partner is not you should either resolve to live like that or get out and find a compatible partner... no need ot continue to live in misery

stoked: who is that benefiting

{nitya}MB: stoked as i said easy for you to say

firey: stoked, ever been married?

Lenore nods to Z.

stoked: totally agree Zuzzz

JBryant: Zuzzz has the answer, neither of which are all that much fun.
< br> stoked: yes firey you need to get a divorce

rai{H}: whoa..

firey: excuse me?

stoked: i know nitya

Zuzzz: after all if you live it you live a lie and eventually IMHO the relationship will end

DiBo: swt, I would recommend introducing just a little bit of play into your normal sexual relations

firey: ok, i think i need to go now

stoked: that's why so many are too weak to do it and revert to irc

JBryant: You either choose to live without your desire, or you chase your desire to the detriment of your relationship.

firey: or you do stoked

sandpiper: oh firey come sit by me sis

firey: stoked you have been into bdsm on irc for a very short time, some of us have both experiences, you don't know what you are talking about

swt_slave: DiBo, why me??

firey: so keep it to yourself please stoked: this is an open forum

rai{H}: i thought this was a discussion..and not a forum to down other's needs/desires??

firey: not for personal attacks

Baatezu: firey come here...sit

stoked: think about why it upsets you so much firey

DiBo: I thought you brought it up, swt
DiBo: my apologies if I'm wrong.

firey: ok stoked: if there is no truth in what i say you would have no trouble disregarding it

JBryant: okokok...Stop.

firey: stoked honey, this is kinda way out of line honey

PhntmJoe: stoked, that'll be enough

firey walks over to Baat and kneels at his side

JBryant: Ok.
JBryant: These topics are hot.

Baatezu strokes firey's hair

KttN: very hot :)

Zuzzz: lets keep the topics hot and the tempers kewl please :}

JBryant: Please people. Do not take the topics personally.

KttN: can we end on a simple one :)

JBryant: Yes. Let's end on a nice simple question. ;)

DiBo: heh.
DiBo: there are simple BDSM questions?

JBryant: Hee!

Lenore: nope hehe

swt_slave: haha

KttN: well this one looks simple :)
KttN: Do you think it matters if the submissive is more experienced than the dominant going into a D/s relationship?

JBryant: Hmm....
JBryant: Interesting.

Lenore: very interesting..

Zuzzz: or vise versa JB (if ya dont mind)

swt_slave: oh my...

DiBo ponders

JBryant: There is the possibility that an experienced sub may top from the bottom or try to run the scene...

swt_slave: uh oh

JBryant: But, in reality, an experienced sub will probably be past that kind of thing.
JBryant: It's the inexperienced subs and Doms that have the worst difficulties in control.

DiBo nods

lavende`Z: rut roh

firey: it certainly is

DiBo: I think an inexperienced Dom can learn from his/her more experienced Dom by doing a lot of talking, etc.

JBryant: Nobody really has the same level of experience, but if I were a newb, I would want to hook up with experience.

firey: i agree Sir

Baatezu: but if the sub is experienced enough he/she will be able to make the Dom feel comfortable and thus learn faster

JBryant: The voice of one that has been there.

DiBo: but in the scene, the control things have to be the way they should

Zuzzz: is it agreed thatt any good Dominant experienced or not will should always be ready to learn from the submissive and vice versa?

{nitya}MB: Baat yup thats what i was thinking

JBryant: And (in this scenario), the experienced sub would know how to submit even to a halting and unsure Dom.

swt_slave: and it's very touchy to top from the bottom

JBryant: We learn from each other.

{nitya}MB: i'm much more experienced than M but hey He wouldnt know it ;)

swt_slave: i agree Zuzzz Sir

swt_slave: and a hush falls......

sandpiper: this is really interesting

JBryant: Communication would be key there. The Dom would need to have the certainty in themselves to let the sub know they are inexperienced.
JBryant: And the sub would have to let the Dom understand that they aren't looking for the Dom to screw up.

swt_slave: it IS very touchy to top from the bottom

KttN: those are very key points :)

swt_slave: what do You mean JBryant Sir

stoked: where'd that come from

swt_slave: i don't get it

JBryant: swt, are you referring to the last thing I said?

swt_slave: yes Sir

Baatezu: but a couple can also talk outside of the D/s experience also communicate desires, limits boundries so the Dom feels educated in advance this also tends to add to confidence

JBryant: I'm going to let you in on a deep dark Dom secret. A deep dark fear.

JBryant: Ready?

Lenore: Shh! don't say it!
Lenore: lol

swt_slave listens close

JBryant: Hee!
JBryant: Doms are afraid of making a mistake.

CerberusS: dangit, he gave it away

ladyflame: thats no secret.....

swt_slave: no way Sir!!!!!!

JBryant: OH NO I SAID IT!

swt_slave: it can't be!

Baatezu: i know it's hard to believe

CerberusS: note to Doms: i say we suspend his membership until further notice! :)

JBryant: It is one of our driving motivations to improve ourselves.

sandpiper: Those with the greater responsibility have the greater to loose

bettypage: heyyyyyyyyyyy i thought Doms cant make mistakes :)

swt_slave: a Dom/me afraid to make a mistake???!!!

Baatezu: uh...or um...so i'm told Ahem

JBryant: We don't want to make mistakes. We don't want to screw up, specially with a sub.

ladyflame: thats like sayin the man is always right and we know thats wrong

Zuzzz: Sure We are but just like the submissive We too want ot be 'perfect'

CerberusS looks at Baatezu and scribbles something on his notepad, squinting at him

{nitya}MB dies of surprise

Baatezu: i'm not always right, but i'm never wrong

swt_slave: but You don't get disciplined for screwing up

Zuzzz: and I would hate to make such a critical mistake as to hurt one

Baatezu: yes we do

JBryant: Oh yes we do.!
JBryant: Oh big time!

ladyflame: neither do i

swt_slave *g*
swt_slave: how??
swt_slave: lol ladyflame

JBryant: When we make mistakes, we lose your submission.
JBryant: Little pieces at a time.

Zuzzz: some mistakes can cost a relationship

swt_slave: oh, like that, true enough Sir

Baatezu: it rips at the Ego and blunders the illusion like nobodies business, it also tends to rattle the newer less experienced Doms

JBryant: I make a rule, you break it, I miss it, boom.

swt_slave: hmmmm?

ghee: There is great wisdom going on here

sandpiper: wow

Zuzzz: Baat. . . some to the point of submission : )

lavende`Z: so a Dom/mes is an emotional not physical pain

Zuzzz: not always lavende`

lavende`Z: we suffer both

JBryant: Zuzzz speaks the truth. When my ex left, I was so rattled as a Dom, I became a sub for some time.

sandpiper: emotional pain can be physical in feeling

swt_slave: oh my, that is interesting JBryant Sir

Zuzzz: ok "I" need to say this....... phyical pain is no more or less severe than emotional or mental pain.... . . ppl die everyday of 'emotional' pain IMHO

JBryant: I was so certain that it was my fault, that it was my failure as a Dom that caused it.

{nitya}MB: M hid His Dom nature by being submissive

stoked: oh lord i'd much prefer physical to emotional pain

lavende`Z: then apparently my emotions are stronger than my physicality, Master

JBryant: Physical pain heals. Emotional pain eats at your soul for a long time.

Zuzzz: even an old Dom can have His ego and emotions crushed so much that physical pain might be a welcome relief stoked: i'll double over in times w/the pain from emotions

JBryant: Bingo, Zuzz.

stoked: and i'd much rather just be beaten than feel that lavende`Z:

JBryant...if you allow it to it will eat at You

Zuzzz: it will eat yer guts out lavende`

lavende`Z: as i've said..i guess i'm just emotionally stronger, Master

JBryant: Well, I'm getting a bit finger-tired myself.
JBryant: This has been a great discussion, guys and gals.

lavende`Z: thank You, JBryant

sandpiper: Thank You JBryant Sir

swt_slave: thank You JBryant Sir

Zuzzz: JB thank You a very interesting and informative discussion : )

JBryant: I must thank KttN for inviting me, and to all of you for hosting and listening to me ramble.

bettypage: thank you very much JBryant

KttN: yes it has:) thank you so much James :)

Baatezu looks at firey "a pepsi and my cigar please"

PhntmJoe: Thank you James...so very much for adding so much knowledge to our humble home

Zuzzz: I think everyone gain mass knowledge and shared some too I am very pleased to have been able to be here

swt_slave: ok i'll do it
swt_slave runs over and hugs Sir JBryant for coming by

Lenore: JBryant, it wasn't rambling to me. I thought it very informative. Though I arrived late ;)

JBryant: :)) I like hugs.

Lenore: Thank you :D

Zuzzz: JamesBrynat "I" hope you come back and visit Us again soon :}

sandpiper: KttN and PhntmJoe thank You for keeping this running smoothy and having it for U/us

Lightnin-: Thank you for your time JBryant

swt_slave: yes, please come back anytime Sir

KttN: we are nice to visit too :)

JBryant: I will come back. Everyone have a wonderful evening.

Lenore: hehe

swt_slave smiles, kisses His cheek, runs back to her seat

*** JBryant has left channel #submission

#submission thanks Mr. Bryant for a very thoughtful and insightful discussion.
Please check back for more discussions with James Bryant.