Topping From The Bottom

Topping From The Bottom
Speaker: Bad^ Sir
The Whipping Post / ChainLinks
April 25, 1999

<Bad^> The topic is Topping from the bottom. and before I get into some specific thoughts about it.. I wondered if people have some preconceived notions about the prhase.

* fireNdark will take this opportunity to introduce a man that is blazing new trails in the southwest and the BDSM world. My friend, my sanity and mentor, Bad^

* fireNdark watch out for that whip, it packs a nasty sting

<Bad^> Oh OKay the whip thang...

* Bad^ pulls down a leather whip snapping it several times just to relieve tension. Bad smiles and places it gently back in its hooks.

[Bad^ SOUND]

* MzP cringes at the thought ofa whip

<MzP> :)

<epiphany^> well Sir, i have heard it generally always referred to negatively, and in my mind it seems to be when a sub works to manipulate and run the D/s relationship to fit their own wants, without really being willing to hand over the power that was agreed to be exchanged

<Bad^> Anyone else feel that "Topping from the bottom" is not a good thing?

<fireNdark> I have to admit that you yourself changed my mind about it a little bit Bad.

<torin^> Generally speaking. No, I dont feel it is.

* MzP only tops when she finds a weakness in the Dominant

<Bad^> torin. you ideas about Topping from the bottom before I begin my speechifying.

<na`te> i think it happens to fill a vacuum...

* Bad^ smiles at MzP. we'll get to that in short order.

<fireNdark> topping from bottom seems to have a bad reputation (pardon the pun) I'm curious about it from a teaching standpoint.

<torin^> Well in a serious Top/bottom relationship I dont feel its something that is going to enforce mutual repect and trust. But then I think at times you get caught up in the idea one person has to be the top and the other the bottom. Which can eventually take away from varying in the relationship.

* fireNdark nods

<Bad^> OKay. Topping from the bottom is often construed as something not desireable in a D/s relationship.. Some think it points up a "weakness" in the Dom or "poor traininng" in the submissive. BUt to fully underestand the Positive role.. it can have in Lifestyle lets look at "type" of relationships for a moment.

<Bad^> D/s = Dopmination submission. clearly a "power exchange" S&M = Sadisim and Masochism. Not neccesarily ANY power exchange. HUrt me? Yes I will HURT you. OKay. UM er A little Lower and to the left PLease? Sure thing! See?

<Bad^> So in a pure TOP /Bottom.. ( implying no power exchange) relationship... Topping from the bottom is how players meet needs.

<Bad^> Enter Domination and submission... A place where people add the element of transfer of control.

<na`te> okay, just what IS that?

<Bad^> You will let me tie you and PLay you. Yes Sir. You will do what I say? Yes Sir. You will work with safe words? Yes Sir. ...well there are the limits ( okay elementary and not all encompassing but it works for this purpose)

<na`te> my guy puts me in bondage, but he doesn's order me around... so what are WE???

<Bad^> So in a relationship where there is no agreement that things will go only according to ONE person... ( directed exploration).. Topping from the bottom is no biggie. it is one of the tools.

<Bad^> You are into bondage na`te. The B in BDSM

<na`te> k...

<Bad^> But to find a D/s relationship where Topping from the Bottom is ALSO acceptible.. I have to set the Wayback Machine MrPeabody.

<Bad^> Sherman sets the date and time to when MrBad began collecting toys for his bag and building a trust relationship with a submissive.

<Bad^> I knew I was a Dom... but it took an experienced submissive who was good in feeding back

how I was doing.. guiding me. Quite a bit of S&M to develop the D/s.

<Bad^> I needed confidence. I needed to KNOW when a flogger wrapped. I needed to learn not to take back talk and manage the testing that each relationship experiences to a degree.

<Bad^> so in learning a role or developing a skill... a submissive might "Top" from the bottom.

<Bad^> Those are examples where the control is "shared" or passed back and forth.

<Bad^> there might not even be a conciou s awareness of it. In some relationships it is quite a natural flowing.

<Bad^> However as we strive to reach a higher level of Domination and submission thicker clearer lines often MUST be drawn.

<wyld_imp> May i ask a question, please?

<Bad^> Please do.

<wyld_imp> Thank You :) When is begging deemed topping from the bottom?

<wyld_imp> i was told that He would not stand for me topping from the bottom but all i was doing was what i thought was begging.

<Bad^> begging is NEVER topping... in fact it clearly seems to indicate a lower station. It might be annoying to some or forbidden by others. But it is a direct expression of need or desire.

<wyld_imp> thank You :)

<Bad^> Being submissive doesn't mean casting aside your needs.

<Bad^> But it DOES mean deferring to your Dominant the task of deciding what your NEED is compared to what your DESIRE is.

<wyld_imp> oh ... that explains it then!

<Bad^> Some people might have casual one party involvements. But to be submissive and to WORK at power exchange in a D/s relationship often invovles forward motion and nurturing the relationship.

<Bad^> If we look historically at the old leather protocol for a minute. Much of the ritual was taken for military protocol. Respect was the ultimate goal. falling in line and doing as trained was the MINIMUM. Potential Masters would train for years often starting as subs themselves... ( instead of reading a Novel and proclaiming themselves one)

<Bad^> The whole sub culture was shrouded in secrecy and honor and total respect and devotion.

<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... was the whole lifestyle taboo?

<Bad^> Today the lifestyle has mutated and there are many strains. It often gives us the feeling that we can concoct our own version of D/s play. Our own rules as it were.

<Bad^> the whole lifestyle echoed a brotherhood many service men returning from World war Two had begun to subscribe to. So leather and motorcycles and honor and rituals all came home but quietly. Yes it was All underground.

<wyld_imp> Then how did anyone get into it?

* fireNdark is reminded of her first thoughts about Doms....older, wiser, jewish and or military background.

<Bad^> Ya had to know someone and go through trial by fire basically if you WERE lucky enough to get a clue.

<wyld_imp> -i- am glad things have changed then ... i don't do "fire" :)

<wyld_imp> i do wonder though, was it easier when it was so regulated and not left up to the individuals?

* fireNdark wonders that same thing.

<wyld_imp> Now, if you are trained by one Dominant and end up with another ... the past training was almost for naught.

<Bad^> Most of us would not "pass muster" by the Old Guard" standards. traditions worth knowing and respecting.. but NEW GUARD rules of SSC and Safewords begin to take the lifestyle out of back rooms. and seek to make it more socially tolerable in the larger culture.

<Bad^> There were Gangs or groups. tribes and "colors" . each had/ have their own ways. If you knew military protocol and could prove yourself. you might be considered.

<Bad^> I would rather move forward I think you have a great topic for another meeting and a more educated speaker here.

<wyld_imp> But that's what i mean, Bad, Sir ... the rules were consistent.

* wyld_imp hushes.

<Bad^> Yes. they were.

<Bad^> So today we have a life style in transition. Many facets. Pansexual as well as hetro sexual and homosexual. different "flavors" of play. Pony girls to bondage to Pure mental roles.

<Bad^> And it is the mental aspect of Domination and submission where the term Topping from the bottom.. gets it's negative spin.

<Bad^> Okay I know there are submissives particularly on line who relish in "needling" their Dom(mes) no? Fess up here.

<wyld_imp> i use to ... but stopped that when i went rt.

<MzP> define needling

* fireNdark puts her dainty lil ole hands on her big ole hips

<MzP> please

<Bad^> MzP you said earlier.. you TOP from the bottom in a specific instance. Can you expound now?

<fireNdark> MzP, you were tru^ely being needled weeks ago. *cough*

<MzP> If I find a any weakness in a Dominant (haha .. thought tru was a needling type) ...

<MzP> I tend to take control...

<MzP> or question any request

<MzP> if I were a true submissive.. I would be termed a "brat" I am sure< /font>

<Bad^> brat seems counter to the kinds of relationships where power is really exchanged.

<MzP> last weekend.. I literallly ended up taking a "so-called" Dominant male.. and put him on his knees

<MzP> :)

<wyld_imp> WTG MzP :)

<MzP> :) thanks lisa!

<Bad^> So for some.. D/s is really more of a tug of war rather than a "submission". Often you can find this on gender lines if you look online.

* MzP would love to find a true Dominant male.. that did not switch.. to see if she can truly be submissive anymore

<MzP> fireNdark.. cannot see Me as a submissive haha

<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... does that mean a submissive should never push a little to find out what are the limits of the Dominant?

<Bad^> In a recent live discussion submissives spoke of "testing" Doms to see if they meant what they said or would keep their word or honor the lines they drew. When they would the submissive was reassured. When they would not. the submisive often confessed to feeling insecure in where they had placed their intitial trust.

<fireNdark> you could make a good attempt at it yes, but your heart, soul and survival instincts I don't think would allow you (imho)

<Bad^> pushing is good. But all in real life saud they would NEVER consider such "testing" in a public venue lest they bring their Dom(me) shame.

<Bad^> online is a whole different circus.

<MzP> In real life.. I have not met a truly Dominant male

<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... was speaking of in private, i would never do that in a public setting

<MzP> they insist they are.. but buckle quickly

<Bad^> Many here seem to thrive on the electricity of the "bad sub" who "needs correction" impish social play. Misbehaving to get attention.

* wyld_imp raises an eyebrow at the "impish" part.

<fireNdark> LOL

<wyld_imp> hmpht

* raianna giggles..

<fireNdark> In the past I have seen that behavior in channel and cringed at it.

<wyld_one> That's where i distinguished the difference between IRC and rt ... for me, i never was the imp in rt when in training. Online, yes ... rt, never

<Bad^> MzP. it seems you would find it hard to submit or offer trust to someone ( male as you put it) lest he not meet all your expectations. I wonder about the gender refrences and I agree a submissive should be VERY careful about who he or she chooses to work with . But there are safewords and ways to advance or retard a relationship. It doesn't all have to succeed or fail on one acid test.

<MzP> That's the one.. the trust factor..

<fireNdark> If I want a good spanking r/l or cyber....I ask for it and have several friends who are willing to oblige.

* MzP is a product of an abusive marriage... is difficult to trust

* MzP spanks her LOL

* raianna looks at MzP..understanding :)

<Bad^> MzP. the difference between an abusive backround and D/s play is you DO have control as a bottom.

<Bad^> You can CHOOSE your partner carefully and you can demand safewords safe calls and safe sane conseual rules before you engage.

<MzP> it is the not play I guess that I don't trust.. it is the truly giving of myself as a submissive...

<Bad^> Or you can just set out to prove that ALL men are assholes. ( we are an easy target actually)

<MzP> I dont think that Bad^ :)

* wyld_one stifles her giggle.

<Bad^> Being a submissive isn't something you "learn". It is a feeling in your heart.

<MzP> oh god.. I know that feeling.. I was raised submissive being in the south..

<Bad^> But those who are feisty or constantly testing or demanding attention from mis behaving also have the potential to become deeper submissives. they just allow fears needs or poor or no training to interfere.

<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... as in breaking of the will?

<Bad^> ( pssst females are an easy target too < wink> But why fight on gender lines when we can be hugging?

<Cisur> can i ask a question?

<Bad^> breaking will is something you do to a horse. People have far more baggage and emotions and history associated with relations.

<Bad^> Allow me to offer one more model Cisor...

<Bad^> Then I will take your qestion...

<Cisur> ok

<Bad^> I have a submissive who misbehaves. Doesn't follow a directive to pay a bill. or refuses to put THREE ice cubes in my drink or whatever...

<Bad^> Maybe puts a whoopee cushion on another Doms chair ( for you on line junkies)

<Bad^> I have several courses of action as his/her Top.

<Bad^> ONE: this is the nature of our relationship. I have permitted such behavior in the past. I expect it or can deal with it and do nothing or go through the motions of " correction" since it is part and parcel of our " play".

<Bad^> I can seriously reprimand the submissive. the failure to comply causes finacinal hardship embarrassment or in the cas e of the ice.. poor attention to service and detail to pleaing me. I can bring down some form of "correction".

<Bad^> The way "I" deal with it... falire to comply in my stable. results in no attention.

<Cisur> ok well now for my Q

<Bad^> If you don't pay the bill.. I will tend to it or reassign it to another. If there are two ice cubes... you will not be permoitted to serve again until you acknowledge the error and explain WHY it occured...

<Cisur> douse anyone here think that submissives are basically self distructive

<wyld_one> Cisur: no

<fireNdark> no, far from it

<raianna> no way

<Bad^> and in thecase of the whoppee cushion.. You might ot be permitted to be on line or attend the next meeting. I will not tolerate embarassment.

<Cisur> but they give over responsibility to others a risky venture surely

<Bad^> Cisur... if they were SELF destructive they would drive off the bridge! Lol

<Cisur> and with a true sub this behavior is pathalogical

<wyld_one> Cisur: You missed the part about trust (wasn't here or wasn't paying attention)

<fireNdark> Cisur, you have a history with obsessive subs?

<Bad^> So back to the topic Topping from the bottom....

<Cisur> maybe but i did hear some discusion about subs deliberatly failing

<fireNdark> :)

<Cisur> no worse luck *smiles*

<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... so You are saying that a submissive purposely acts up -to- get attention so You deal with it by not giving any attention, is that correct?

<Bad^> expressing a need/desire in an appropriate way and time.. is much more effective.

<wyld_one> *nods*

<Bad^> A good Domiunate will know what levels of attention his Her sub require.

<Bad^> As I said... much earlier. if you give yourself over to one you think you can trust.. you will have to allow him/ her to try to assess what you NEED against what you WANT.

<Cisur> still the sub risks losing there personality

<Cisur> risks being reconstructed

<wyld_one> Cisur: not so at all

<wyld_one> submissives are not Stepford Wives

<Cisur> they can be which is my point about self destructive elements in subs

<Cisur> the re ordering of the self by another persons standerds

<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... If the submissive does not know her / his own needs (only their wants) ... how does the Dominant know? Trial and error?

<Cisur> unless of course you believe in the paradox that it is indeed thwe dom whois being controlled

<Bad^^^> Actually I have seen many people who have actually found security in their role...

<wyld_one> welcome back Bad, Sir ... i will repost my question

<Bad^^^> More self esteem a better sense of who they are and what the lines are.

<raianna> wb, Bad^ Sir

<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... If the submissive does not know her / his own needs (only their wants) ... how does the Dominant know? Trial and error?

<Bad^^^> MzP spoke of coming from abuse. Do you not enjoy the stability of safe sane consenusal play this lifestlye offers MzP?

<MzP> Yes I do

<MzP> when I find it :)

<Bad^^^> My submisive may want a steak. I know she NEEDS healthy nourishment.

<Cisur> you presume rather

<Bad^^^> So Top or bottom the order, regime and safety of mainstream D/s actually can be liberating.

<Cisur> liberating from what?

<fireNdark> specialy if you offer a chicken for ma in course and a few bites of steak for dessert

<Bad^^^> you are topping from the menu now firendark.

<fireNdark> ;)

<fireNdark> or the Sahara, depending on my spelling.

<Bad^^^> Cisur. a town has a major intersection....And as the population grows it becomes more difficult to get across it.

<wyld_one> i was speaking more of ... when the submissive wants comfort and the Dominant choses to ignore

<Bad^^^> Town fathers erect a traffic light. Rules and guidelines now permit safe passage.

<Cisur> subs are always wanting comfort the comfort of having no responsibility

<MzP> that isnt always true Cisur

<wyld_one> no responsibility? How long have you been involved in D/s, Cisur?

<Bad^^^> If a submissive WANTS comfort.. there is a good chance she NEEDS comfort. If the Dominant is not filling the need... time to re contract or find a better top . submission is a GRANTING of one's self not seeling one's soul.

<Cisur> no long term responsibility for themselves im talking about there psyches not wether they have to have the washing up done on time

<wyld_one> Cisur: a submissive has a lot of responsibility and the -main- one is to please his / her Mistress / Master

<Bad^^^> Cisur the minute you lump all subs and relationship into one wash tub... you are libel to make gross generalizations and sterotypical errors.

<Cisur> and the manner in which the sub douse that is determined by the dom

<Bad^^^> But they also have a responsibility to find a Dominant who IS compatible and to end a relationship ( withdraw submissin) if NEEDS aren't being met.

<Cisur> its the doms resposibility

<wyld_one> Cisur: again, i ask ... how long have you been involved in D/s?

<Bad^^^> I can see we are going int oopen debate on the pathology of submissin according to Cirus. thank you for your time tonight.

<Cisur> how douse the sub know what there needs consist of acording to Bad thats the doms job

<wyld_one> Bad, Sir, please continue ... /ignore works wonders :)

<Bad^^^> Cisur ( my apology mythical abboration)

<psyche> it's the submissive's job to tell the Dom what he/she is thinking

<epiphany^> please Sir, i am truly interested in what you have to say on the topic

<psyche> open communication

<laur^el> i wish to continue with the topic ... if that counts at all

<Bad^^^> We are almost done and my time is limited. I shall continue on the topic. TOPPING from the bottom.

<Bad^^^> Agreed?

<MzP> agreed

* psyche nods and listens

<fireNdark> yes sir

<wyld_one> yes Sir!

<epiphany^> yes Sir, agreed

* laur^el listens quietly again

<Cisur> crawling subs uuuurrrk

<Bad^^^> OKay.. so here we had a real life example or a behavior that was unwarranted.

<fireNdark> ROFL

<Bad^^^> Cisur is wanting to manuever the conversation to his own agenda.

<Bad^^^> And the advice I am given is.....

<Bad^^^> /ignore works wonders :)

* P^Man grins

<Bad^^^> And so it has.

<Bad^^^> Either the submissive. LEARNS or finds other places to play.

<MzP> (not to mention the broomstick I was lubing for him)

<Bad^^^> You are part of a splinter group for sure MzP rofl

<MzP> haha :)

<MzP> thanks.. i think

<fireNdark> ohhhhh man, y'all are Bad!

<epiphany^> no there is only one Bad^

<fireNdark> very true epiphany

<Bad^^^> OKay. Now. I have ranted and raved and fought to keep control here for a while. Bona fide questions about what is good or Bad Topping from the bottom and how to deal with it?

<P^Man> there is "good" topping from the bottom?

<Bad^^^> Yes. at the start of this discussion which I trust wil be posted soon.. we spoke of S&M without p ower exchange. and experienced subs who help "guide" new Doms. A third example is when such "impish" behavior is PART of the contracted or expected play.

<KttN> yeah, i have a question about Dom Drop... lets say this happens and depression hits the Dom, how do recommend the sub bring it back to focus?

<P^Man> ahhhh.... this makes sense

<Bad^^^> We also spoke of who it is real that a submissive sometimes needs to know there are FIRM limits. but in real life this sort of "testing" and confirming need never happen in public lest it bring the dominant shame or embarrassment.

<KttN> she could be accused of topping

<Bad^^^> When a Dom loses his interest in his role.. or suffers from DOM Drop... as you call it. He is still responsible to the relationship even if he is barely present. ( he/ she humor me here)

<KttN> i am with you

<Bad^^^> It becomes imperative for the sub and dom to sit and reevaluate their roles. Sometimes as in the deatrh of one nearby... all roles might be suspended while one or both mourn. In the case of an employment cirsis or other De- Domming affliction... re negotiation ar re alignment is also part of the cure.

<Bad^^^> I personally rarely go into my own dungeon these days. Having just come from a tailspin of work with three submissives who are growing in leaps and bound. I have concerns about bevcoming the endorphin "Pusher" and als want other aspects of my roles with them to be more solid before I do the heavy play again. Dom Drop perhaps.. but neverr shirking my responsibility to those who have agreed to trust me deeply.

* P^Man nods

<fireNdark> re-alignment I like that. Sounds better than a "swift kick in the ass".

<Bad^^^> none the less. submitting to someone doesn't mean you toss out your rights to regularly re-evaluate who you both are and what you both want.

<Bad^^^> Now int he case of Advanced relationships. In real life this would include slaveery, contracts, and SERIOUS collarings... the trust HAS been given over. a situation of DOM DROP would have to be referred back to the contract to see if terms were violated.

<KttN> thank you

<Bad^^^> questions?

<laur^el> none from me but thank you all for the interesting discussion ...

<fireNdark> a comment. Topping from the bottom, it can be good or bad....depends on the individuals

<Bad^^^> Yes. the definition of the relationship is Key. even those who seek attention here on line mayt well be in th e bounds of their "relationsahip" but keep in mind the original tenants of honor and respect in this lifestyle as you grow and explore.

<epiphany^> and depends on the relationship of those individuals, and can be in flux a lot as with other areas of a relationship

<Bad^^^> Thank you so much for attending tonight.

<fireNdark> Thank you for coming tonight sir.

<Bad^^^> I'd love to shamelessly plug my web site now...

<wyld_one> thank You Bad, Sir!

<fireNdark> go right ahead

<Bad^^^> The Whipping Post / ChainLinkshttp://members.aol.com/MrBadSir/bad/wppd.html

<epiphany^> THank you Sir, it was wonderful, and informative

<P^Man> I wish I would have made the beginning of this :)

<psyche> thank you Bad, Sir :)

<P^Man> ( btw, I will retrieve the log of this and post it to the list.... for anyone who wants a copy)

<Bad^^^> I look forward to future chats here. I see some heavy hitters on the calendar coming up. And I'd love to return again as a host more frequenlty than Haleys Comet! < wink>

* fireNdark dons her editing tools and gets busy on it.

<Bad^^^> With Kttn's permission I will also post the log to my site.

<laur^el> would someone post the addy of the calendar?

<KttN> that would be great Bad:) i can think of a million topics i would like see discussed

<KttN> please do

<Bad^^^> The calendar is http://cuffs.com/submission/datetime.html

<laur^el> thank you Sir

<Bad^^^> Places to go People to Dom. Bad^ dreams ladies. thanks again fireNdark

<fireNdark> my friend :)*

<epiphany^> night night all

<u4ea{BD}t> is it already over *pout*

<laur^el> thank you again ... night all

<MzP> we'll have a log of it euphie :)

<fireNdark> that's a wrap folks.